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02-26-2014, 06:05 PM | #121 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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There was one 'one way mirror' concept in the Choice of the Peredhil. A Half Elf who chose the Life of the Eldar could have children, even born of an Elf, who could become immortal. But, the converse was not true. Once a Half-Elf chooses a mortal life, their children cannot choose the life of the Elven. So, Although Aragorn's and Arwen's children, for example, bear almost as much Elven blood as Elrond, there is no choice allowed to them. Even had one of their children married an Elf (full blooded) nothing is stated in the mythology about what happens to the Elf by way of lifespan. The only precedent is Luthien, who did die, but that occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was incepted when Earendil made his way to Valinor. Last edited by Ivriniel; 02-26-2014 at 06:09 PM. |
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02-26-2014, 06:21 PM | #122 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The Prince of Dol Amroth was the second highest ranking nobile in Gondor. Daughters of the royal family were very likely to marry into that line at some point meaning that the Princes of Dol Amroth would be descendants of Anarion. Quote:
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Luthien was not a case of a Halfelven being given a choice. It was her making a deal to get Beren back, which meant giving up her immortality. In return Beren was brought back to life and this was a unique exception counter balanced by Tuor being the only mortal to ever become immortal. |
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02-26-2014, 06:27 PM | #123 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Galador, the son of the Elf woman, and his son. Galador lived for 125 years and his son lived for 143 years. So the son, Galador, had a shorter life span than the grandson, Galador's son.
In People of M-E it is said, ""the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages". [ch. 7] This does not imply that they were the purest noble house in Gondor, only that they were one of the few who were nearly so. The Lords of Dol Amroth were probably cousins of Elendil or at least were married into his family as early as before the destruction of Númenor. I'm of the opinion that the Stewards married into the royal house some time before the end of Gondor's kings. Regarding Éowyn, Morwen who was a High Woman from Dol Amroth, married a Rohirrim and her children were Thingol & his sister Théodwyn. Between them were 3 children, Éowyn & her brother Éomer, their mother being Théodwyn, their uncle Théoden and his deceased son Théodred. They were all of Dúnedain descent, kinsmen of the Lords of Dol Amroth. Éomer and Éowyn married back into Gondor's high houses; Éomer with Imrahil's daughter, and his sister Éowyn into the Steward's House with Faramir.
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02-26-2014, 06:33 PM | #124 | |
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And yet I remember clearly that somewhere in the Appendices a commentary (I think by Merry, written during the early period of the 4th Age) states of Cirdan : " .... and some say he dwells there still", meaning the Havens. |
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02-26-2014, 07:29 PM | #125 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The Numenoreans were never ones to have big families or even always got married at all. Then with the wars, the pestilence and others things many of the noble families would have ended. Minas Morgul had falled and Osgiliath was a ruin. Then there was the terrible kinslaying, which if anything like the War of the Roses (which it appears to be) then several lines would have been wiped out. The Stewards seemed to have been chosen in part, because they had no claim; a neutral noble House if you will. As I said before even at the time of Aragorn's return there were other Houses of greater nobility. I can see the warring Princes of Gondor settling for a noble House, but one with no threat of ever being able to claim the throne. |
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02-26-2014, 09:37 PM | #126 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Certainly it did not, but you yourself are not averse to quoting Tolkien's words that have not made it into say LotR or it's Appendixes. Is there a problem you have with the quote because it's not in the appendix? I'd find it hard to think this would be the case, especially with you or many another people when LotR is not the sole source made use of.
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""the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful OF THOSE NEAR KIN. Often those on whom SUSPICION FELL had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had RENOUNCED THEIR LINEAGE and taken wives NOT of Númenorean blood." Quote:
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Or do you mean chosen by the Kings to be Stewards? Quote:
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What is clear to me is that those who could be claimants were hardly pure like the children of Castamir for instance, "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar... they married women of Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Númenorean blood" [ch.7]. So since "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [Appendix A] there was no Kingship allotted. The Kin-strife was also at the backs of the minds of the Council.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche Last edited by Belegorn; 02-26-2014 at 09:41 PM. |
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02-27-2014, 05:09 AM | #127 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In any case, all this occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was formalised, in Valinor, after Earendil's arrival there. Last edited by Ivriniel; 02-27-2014 at 06:05 AM. |
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02-27-2014, 04:04 PM | #128 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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'... and by that I mean they must depart when I go, that is, on the very same ship or in the same year at least...' Or something Another statement in Appendix A goes something like depart 'with' him, but some seem to interpret that to mean that the Sons can leave after Elrond sailed, but will be 'with' him in a broader sense, and can still chose an Elvish fate [as Tolkien seems to suggest in a letter]. Again I rather think the more natural suggestion is as you [we] have said. And Robert Foster seems to agree [in his guide to Middle-earth] -- and the point there is, he was not letting 'that letter' influence his interpretation of the story. |
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02-27-2014, 04:28 PM | #129 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It's in reply to this that Gondor makes the decision to choose Earnil a descendant through the male line over Arvedui's female line claim (amongst other claims). It seems almost impossible that the Princes of Dol Amroth were not descendants of Anarion through a female line at this point. I question only if the House of Stewards were too. I don't think they were, because 1. They were not one of the great families 2. Everyone agreed to let them rule as Stewards. |
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02-27-2014, 04:36 PM | #130 | |||
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She may have been mortal, but she remained an Elf. Dior is a strange case, because there had been no judgement made at the point he died. This is clear since Mandos and Ulmo question whether Earendil is a Noldor or a Man. Dior lived most his life with the elves. He ruled Doriath and married an elf, which is not counted amongst the union of Elves and Men. When laws have been established like with the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas then you know what you are going into. Not so with Dior and I like to think he would have been given a choice. |
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02-27-2014, 06:11 PM | #131 | |||
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There is an immediate difficulty here, in Arwen, who was not male, and who had the opportunity of immortality. I am also wondering if there are other materials about the Peredil that I have read and forgotten about, but which challenge the other aspect of Mandos's decision, binding the Choice to two blood lines. Quote:
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Let me do some research on Mandos's decree. I may unearth further materials about the Choice of the Peredhil Irvriniel |
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02-27-2014, 06:39 PM | #132 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Mandos made the decree about Earendil and Elwing son's because they were the only descendants alive at the time. It would be cruel to allow Elrond to live like an Elf, but doom his children to be mortal. Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor)and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.-Letter 153 It's in a very early draft of the Quenta Silmarillion we get this statement. 'Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.' It's also possible that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor is just a legend made up to explain the distinctly elvish appearance of the Princes of Dol Amroth. It's possible that as in the alternative account they were descendants of Elros, who happened to retain the elvish look more than most. |
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02-27-2014, 07:27 PM | #133 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones). We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation. It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished). The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well. Quote:
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Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne. Last edited by Ivriniel; 02-27-2014 at 07:34 PM. |
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02-27-2014, 09:04 PM | #134 | ||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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They all had a weak claim to rule as Peneldur made clear when he rejected Arvedui's claim thus not only stopping his clan from claiming the kingship but the other clans who also had a royal lineage but not through the male line. Quote:
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"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." [Letter 244, pp. 323-4]
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02-27-2014, 10:27 PM | #135 | ||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The political logic is that there are a few Houses with strong claims to the throne like the Prince of Dol Amroth and others. These Houses cannot agree on who should be king, so they agree to let the Steward continue ruling until the matter is resolved. A bit like the crisis Scotland had after the death of the Maid of Norway. They called upon Edward Longshanks to settle the matter. Quote:
The reasoning being that the House of Stewards would never be powerful enough to claim the kingship. As things stand now we know that Dol Amroth at least would have seceded and possibly other areas too. Quote:
I imagine the other great Houses were content to keep the Stewards, because it was better than a Civil War. Quote:
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2. When a group of powerful Houses are all competing for rule, they sometimes let a less powerful House/person rule as a compromise. Usually, because they don't feel the person will ever be a threat (this is part of the reason Hitler was able to come to power). Say for Instance the Lord of Dol Amroth and the Lord of Calenardhon (fictional Lord) had the two strongest claims through the female line. Both are powerful and important families. The Prince of Dol Amroth does not agree on the Lord of Calenardhon and vice versa. To keep the peace they decide on letting the Steward keep ruling, safe in the knowledge that his claim and power base is too weak to take the throne. This is a possible reason for why Denethor was bitter that in Gondor the House of Stewards could never take the throne even after a 1000 years. |
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02-27-2014, 10:42 PM | #136 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion. Quote:
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Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. Arwen and the twins were granted 'other doom'. Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal. Quote:
As for Legolas' comments he could just be mistaking High Numenorean descent with recent elvish ancestry. Legolas is not well traveled to Gondor and knows little of what they were like in their height. Aragorn himself when dressed up looked more like an Elf Lord than any mortal man. I personally tend to favour Tolkien's other version where the Princes of Dol Amroth were Elendil's kin. They were a House that kept their blood very pure and lived more in tune with the Elvish lifestyle. This view would help explain their position as the highest nobility in Gondor. If they were close relatives to Elendil, then it would make sense for him to make them princes. This also parallels Aragorn making Faramir a prince. Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily. Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves. |
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02-28-2014, 11:38 AM | #137 | |||||||||||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In any case, heredity principalities, such as that which the Kings and the Stewards are borne into, are easier to hold onto since the state is accustomed to the family of its rulers. Gondor's Civil War was due to a thing they were unaccustomed to, a King not marrying a Dúnedain woman. Even back in Númenor it started to become a practice among the Kings to marry women of the line of Elros, "to these provisions Tar-Aldarion added that the King's Heir should not wed save in the Line of Elros, and that any who did so should cease to be eligible for the Heirship." [UT; Aldarion and Erendis, p.218] Howso? This happened between 1944-1945 of the 3rd Age. Quote:
Not according to the South Kingdom who believed that the "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only;" [RotK, Appendix A] In Gondor they were of the belief that the Kings of Arnor, Isildur's heirs no longer had any claim to the throne of Gondor having relinquished the the realm. Arvedui argued that this was not so and that Isildur did not, "intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided forever." This was echoed by Denethor many years later, "I am a Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." [RotK, ch. 7, p. 142] Here Denethor makes it clear that even if Aragorn proved he was an heir of the kings, his line was of Isildur and not Anárion. As was stated before, ""The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm." [RotK, Appendix A] Quote:
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Agreed for reasons stated above. Quote:
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However, unlike you I'm a bit more certain that there actually were those from the male line, but they were mixed and not eligible due to their mingling with lesser women, "no male descendants of the royal line, among those whose blood was little mixed, could be found." [PoM-E, ch. 7] Quote:
You say "Gondor may not have had a strict law" but you mentioned earlier the Civil War. Do you not realize the Civil War occurred because this rule was broken? So I would say I think they took it seriously as it came to war when it was breached. Quote:
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"The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS ONLY;" [RotK, Appendix A] Still they would make baseless claims. Just 100 years earlier they had kept up the practice that "In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS ONLY;". I do not think that they would start trying to make the same argument as Arvedui which the lords of Gondor found baseless. Quote:
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None other in Gondor could either imo.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche Last edited by Belegorn; 02-28-2014 at 11:47 AM. |
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03-01-2014, 01:07 AM | #138 | ||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Mandos *specifically* says (in the Silmarillion, when Earendil made it to Valinor) that the --sons-- of Earendil and Elwing are to be covered by his Decree. Arwen--female--yet, she had the Choice of the Peredhil. I might argue that we should merely interpret Mandos as commenting upon the Peredil he knew would come of the Half Elves he knew *of*, and that it is unclear what is meant for unions of Elves and Men beyond the Line of Earendil. Quote:
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I doubt, highly, that the boat would have been refused access to Valinor, don't you think? My point goes to 'which way the kids go'--I like ma more than pa--daddy Numenorean's a bit of a hard *** and likes too much drink and wants all that human-y stuff. I like ma's lamenting singing. She makes Waybread and I like what the Lady Galadriel said to me in Lorien. Lorien's way cooler for me (said Gilmith) than daddy's sword stuff'. Quote:
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I do like the idea, though, of the females of the Line of Silmarien of Andunie, in Gondor--all the second and subsequent born--Princesses of Gondor, trundling off to marry Imrahil's Elvishy crew. Seems quite likely, as I think you suggested. I really need to look a little more closely at 'what' exactly, they did after Earnur. I wonder if Tolkien ever commented about Elros's blood being present in Imrahil's line. One would of thought it would have been mentioned, by *someone* in LotR at the Pelenor? Quote:
Last edited by Ivriniel; 03-01-2014 at 01:19 AM. |
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03-01-2014, 07:33 PM | #139 |
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Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).
Except for that theory to hold up, Imrahil would somehow have to have found out that Aragorn was the same as the 'Thorongil' of his boyhood.
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03-20-2014, 09:44 AM | #140 | |
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03-20-2014, 11:50 AM | #141 |
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I don't believe it's anywhere suggested that Thorongil was "the Steward's right hand," or had any status except as a military captain, and there's no particular reason to suppose that he would have visited Dol Amroth or met the Prince's toddler; his job was with the Army and the Fleet.
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03-20-2014, 12:42 PM | #142 | |
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'In much he (Ecthelion II) did he had the aid and the advice of a great captain whom he loved above all.....He was a great leader of men, by land or by the sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended.' He had so much power in Gondor Aragorn was the most beloved man and seen as a rival to Denthor. 'At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor' Denethor as great as he was and he was very great just could not compare even to Ecthelion with Aragorn. 'yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father.' Thorongil as we have seen counseled in everything including trusting Gandalf over Saruman. 'And in one matter only were their (Aragorn and Denethor) counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.' |
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