The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

[Galin]

Originally Posted by gondowe

Well, due to the versions of TLOTR and TRGEO (that I think must be a law, because they were published by their author),...

I very much agree!

... I tried to make solution thinking and editorially writing in my recontructed account of the Second Age, that ere the fall of Nargothrond, in a non told year, Galadriel passed over the Mountains and "discovered" Lindorinand but she returned to Doriath again.

That certainly works. I stayed away from a reconciliation of having two trips only because I don't think that was ever Tolkien's intent coupled with (my opinion) that this seems a greater step to take with respect to reconstruction -- not that you are saying it was Tolkien's intent of course; I realize that.

I think the first trip into Eriador and beyond (which ended up with Galadriel meeting Celeborn in Lindorinand) was abandoned by JRRT, and that he possibly didn't remember the implication of Galadriel's statement, or maybe he didn't think it was explicit enough to be problematic enough for revision.

Admittedly I don't think Tolkien ever meant (that Galadriel meant) the Ered Wethrin with her statement in The Lord of the Rings, but it seemed to me to be a lesser sort of interpretation than retaining her trip to Lindorinand here. I assume she did cross the Ered Wethrin at some point to get to Doriath, although I agree it's a bit of an odd way to put things, given that if that were her meaning, it was certainly before the 'fall' of Nargothrond!

Part of my 'cough' above

That said, as I write this post and think about it more, we know that when Tolkien wrote this line in The Lord of the Rings, according to Christopher Tolkien anyway, his father probably did 'mean' that Galadriel passed over Eredluin (and the Misty Mountains perhaps) to arrive in Lindorinand (in this earlier conception to meet Celeborn the Nandorin Elf)...

... so in a sense, your scenario preserves part of the actual early idea behind this statement, with one adjustment being that Celeborn was not in Lindorinand already however.


I shall think more on this point then, at least.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, Galadriel's statement in FR is somewhat vague in its first part, at least with regard to the declaration that Celeborn "has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn." West could mean pretty much anything from Beleriand to Eriador to Lorinand. (but not in this context, I think, Valinor).

The problem of course arises with the "I" as opposed to "we;" and the proposition "for" in "I have dwelt with him years uncounted, for ere the fall of Nargothrond I passed over the mountains, and together" etc. Pretty hard to get around that- Galadriel met Celeborn *after* she crossed the mountains (whether Ered Luin or Hithaeglir doesn't really matter)- i.e. Celeborn could not have been a Sinda (unless one wants to fan-fic up a tale in which he independently headed out from Doriath on his own). No, Celeborn was conceived as a native Avar/Nando, and the sentence just escaped later revision.

It is in fact a 'ghost' sentence, like Gimli's unused axe; it's not something to be reconciled or papered over, it's just an artifact of a work of imaginative fiction. It's not like there's an underlying reality, you know.

[Galin]

Then how about Ered Wethrin WCH

The problem there is, Nargothrond hadn't even been begun yet when Galadriel crossed these mountains, much less fallen... but I wonder if the fall of Gondolin and Nargothrond might simply be used as a historic marker, so to speak... somewhat like saying 'before the Fall of Rome' generally equals 'a long time ago'...

... or ahem, something.

It is in fact a 'ghost' sentence, like Gimli's unused axe; it's not something to be reconciled or papered over, it's just an artifact of a work of imaginative fiction. It's not like there's an underlying reality, you know.

I do not understand this last sentence

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, I'd say that "days of dawn" is a a better approx of "long, long time ago"

[Galin]

Well no doubt there are better ways to say this... but here of course I am trying to reinterpret a statement so that it might allow both it and RGEO to fit (well enough if not perfectly) into the history of Celeborn and Galadriel, and so I can't change the wording.

So so far I'm sticking with the Ered Wethrin

I think it's a bit odd to have Galadriel say this if she means she went to Lindorinand without Celeborn and returned... I mean why note this crossing if being together is so much a part of the meaning?

In other words, as a detail of history it works well enough, but not so much with respect to the context of Galadriel's statement. My scenario is a bit off too due to the timing of the 'fall', as I say, but at least it puts Galadriel with Celeborn together after this crossing, and doesn't seem to step on what I feel is a main thrust of the statement.

[gondowe]

Anyway, be a "ghost" sentence, Tolkien did not repare in it in the revision of TLOTR post the new conception about Galadriel, or whatever be, if we want to make a reconstruction of his History (and of Celeborn) coherent with the whole legendarium, this sentence (and that in TRGEO), in my opinion, must be readed as a truth. And then act in consecuence.

Greetings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

if we want to make a reconstruction of his History (and of Celeborn) coherent with the whole legendarium

Why?

Anyway, be a "ghost" sentence, Tolkien did not repare in it in the revision of TLOTR

Tolkien while brilliant was not infallible; the LR is littered with uncorrected lines he overlooked during revision- that's what a 'ghost' is, as in the 'ghost' of an earlier draft. Just for two examples, Aragorn's "sleep without fear" statement in Caras Galadon, and Pippin seeing the moon rising rather than setting on the night of the war-beacons.