Taters to Taters - II

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Agricultural and preindustrial is not opposites, nor mutual exclusive. I am not suggesting that the Shire was a simple society, it was quite clearly a complex society, but also clearly preindustrial.

Preindustrial societies were not unfamiliar with mechanical devices, and some of these were driven by inanimate energy, like waterwheels, windmills and ships, but most of them depended on human or animal energy for their operation. The industrial breakthrough is mainly defined by the scale of which it freed production from its dependence on animal and human muscle. This is something that clearly has not taken place in the Shire.

The lack of modern industries made agriculture by far the most important source of wealth in preindustrial societies, something you rightly point out is the case in the Shire.

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

With both Samwise and Ted Sandyman there are exceptional circumstances that changes their fortunes. Samwise gets tangle up in the affairs of the great, whilst Ted remain in Hobbiton during a (from most peoples point of view) hostile takeover. In the end Ted seizes to be a miller, and ends up working for Saruman, during his attempt to industrialize the Shire. Samwise ends up being the mayor, and at this point you can sertainly argue that Samwise has higher standing than Ted.

However at this point we are no longer comparing Ted the miller with Samwise the gardener. Now we are comparing Ted the traitor and industrial worker, with Samwise the war hero and mayor.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Agricultural and preindustrial is not opposites, nor mutual exclusive. I am not suggesting that the Shire was a simple society, it was quite clearly a complex society, but also clearly preindustrial.

Preindustrial societies were not unfamiliar with mechanical devices, and some of these were driven by inanimate energy, like waterwheels, windmills and ships, but most of them depended on human or animal energy for their operation. The industrial breakthrough is mainly defined by the scale of which it freed production from its dependence on animal and human muscle. This is something that clearly has not taken place in the Shire.

Ahhhhh! I see. I was taking 'preindustrial' in an entirely different sense than you intended it - I read the connotations that 'preindustrial' meant 'on the verge of becoming industrial and moving in that direction', whereas you seem to have meant it simply as 'not yet industrial'.

The lack of modern industries made agriculture by far the most important source of wealth in preindustrial societies, something you rightly point out is the case in the Shire.

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

But even before any social mobility occurs, is Sam not Frodo's friend? I don't know that forcing Ted Sandyman and Sam into social castes by their occupation is entirely appropriate. Their social circles seem to me to be less dictated by their occupations and more by their personalities and interests.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh my, is this thread turning to some meta-discussion about pre-industrial societies? Well, let me just point out one thing.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

I agree 100% about everything you have said, Rune, or would have agreed, if there weren't for one explicit quote from Tolkien which says pretty clearly what the status of the gardeners was. I am sure we all know that part.

Faramir and Frodo:

Originally Posted by The Window of the West

"Your land must be a realm of peace and content, and there must gardeners be in high honour."
"Not all is well there," said Frodo, "but certainly gardeners are honoured."

I get the picture that gardener is something a bit special in the Shire. Not that special, for sure, but given the hobbits' love for all that grows etc., maybe the gardeners enjoyed a bit more respect than they would in a similar society in our history. Just as a remark

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Ahhhhh! I see. I was taking 'preindustrial' in an entirely different sense than you intended it - I read the connotations that 'preindustrial' meant 'on the verge of becoming industrial and moving in that direction', whereas you seem to have meant it simply as 'not yet industrial'.

Fair play, when talking history I tend to generalise. So I used preindustrial in the broadest of forms, also because this is the use I have encountered the most often.

Originally Posted by Loslote

But even before any social mobility occurs, is Sam not Frodo's friend? I don't know that forcing Ted Sandyman and Sam into social castes by their occupation is entirely appropriate. Their social circles seem to me to be less dictated by their occupations and more by their personalities and interests.

I agree that maybe it is a stretch trying to apply our social terms on Hobbits, but isn't it fun?

I am not sure about personalities having greater influence than in our society, on the face of it, these things seem quite similar. However I would need to reread the books with this in mind, before making my mind up.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I agree 100% about everything you have said, Rune, or would have agreed, if there weren't for one explicit quote from Tolkien which says pretty clearly what the status of the gardeners was. I am sure we all know that part.

Faramir and Frodo:

I get the picture that gardener is something a bit special in the Shire. Not that special, for sure, but given the hobbits' love for all that grows etc., maybe the gardeners enjoyed a bit more respect than they would in a similar society in our history. Just as a remark

I read that very passage as late as yesterday, and it does not change my view on things. Certain professions will always be held in high regard, even if their social status is low(maybe "social status" isn't the best term, but I hope you understand what I am getting at). You see this in every society... I would argue that soldiers and parking attendants come from much the same social group, but one is honored much more than the other. Beregond for example might be respected, but in no way would he ever be regarded as part of the elite.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I read that very passage as late as yesterday, and it does not change my view on things. Certain professions will always be held in high regard, even if their social status is low(maybe "social status" isn't the best term, but I hope you understand what I am getting at). You see this in every society... I would argue that soldiers and parking attendants come from much the same social group, but one is honored much more than the other. Beregond for example might be respected, but in no way would he ever be regarded as part of the elite.

Yep, I guess. The soldier example is actually pretty good one, that's basically how I imagine the gardeners to differ. However, and that's what we are getting at and what I believe Nog's post and Lottie later were aiming at as well, even this means a difference: gardener and miller apparently come from similar class background, but with the difference that the gardener is respected in some special way, whereas miller is not in any special way (which can then open door to what Nog had said, in certain circumstances). But whatever, I am by no means willing to make this a "How did class relationships work in the Shire" thread...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

. But whatever, I am by no means willing to make this a "How did class relationships work in the Shire" thread...

Why not?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Why not?

Simply because it's not called that But I don't care, really...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

OK, my parting shot will be this: Sam could never have become a miller even if he wanted, it was quite simply beyond his means.

Anyways, good choice with Glaurung...

[Nogrod]

Yay! The best Taters To Taters discussion so far! (I mean, yes, not too much on topic of the game but I do love discussions spreading from an instant just like that)

To be honest, I was not thinking of it that deep into the social structure of the ME as I just had to make an argument to drop one contender off the list where my own was to try and steer it a 50-50 chance for my candidate (and it was hard to argue against Glaurunbg being malicious )...

But where I was coming to the discussion was this: Bilbo (and therefore Frodo) was thought to be an outrageously rich person and having queer habits & interests - so being outside the local conservative community in every way. And therefore all those involved with them (Sam, Pip, Merry) would bé looked with suspicion as well. With resentment even as they were doing so well.

When they came back you see the four hobbits coming with all the strange costumes, mighty weapons, expensive-looking gadgets... and worldly and noble in their carriage of themselves... so it would have been an easy target for resentment, something that could awake a sense of righteousness while standoing up against those strange-ones who hadn't shared the common tragedy - or who looked like they knew better and were better than you - so not so much malice but a pay-back, or a fight for one's identity and honour.

Yeah, I know that might be a bit far-fetched, but remember I had an argument to make against Ted Sandyman being malicious as he was easier to argue against than Glaurung.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Yay! The best Taters To Taters discussion so far! (I mean, yes, not too much on topic of the game but I do love discussions spreading from an instant just like that)

I know this is fantastic!

Now as far as Ted Sandyman, I've always imagined if there was a modern stereotype he'd fit, it would be the ultimate internet troll. "Nah uh, did you see it? It can't be real if you didn't see it!" "Your uncle is cracked, and you're cracked for listening!" Not so much malicious, just someone who'd be very hard to be in the company of...

But then he does become a turncoat, although I liked the previous points on Grima (and think the same applies to Ted). That is, Grima's malice was fueled for personal gain and better social standing...Glaurung and The Mouth of Sauron's malice was right down to simple satisfaction and cruel enjoyment.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But then he does become a turncoat, although I liked the previous points on Grima (and think the same applies to Ted). That is, Grima's malice was fueled for personal gain and better social standing...Glaurung and The Mouth of Sauron's malice was right down to simple satisfaction and cruel enjoyment.

Very much agreed!

PS. Rune: your PM box is full...

[Boromir88]

Have to do this early again, but as always until 8pm EST (Midnight GMT) tomorrow to send me your choice.

Tally

Menel - 2 (Absurd, Handy)
Rune - 1 (Energetic)
Lottie - 1 (Malicious)
Legate - 1 (Classic)

---

ROUND 6

Green tater: Famous (well-known, important, distinguished)
Judge: Lottie

[Boromir88]

I remembered this morning again was spent with hooliganising teenagers, and now I have a wedding event to attend. So I will open the next round up when I get back (probably sometime around midnight EST)