Huorns in the Old Forest?

[Dynaviir]

This has puzzled me for a while. I've always wondered whether or not the Old Forest had huorns or not in it, because Treebeard said there was a connection between it and Fangorn Wood, and because of the nature of the hobbits trek through the woods. I know there must be at least one (Old Man Willow).

I'm unsure if this has been debated before, since I think Treebeard said he didn't think there were any left there. Does anyone have any opinions?

[Lord of Angmar]

Whether the trees of the Old Forest can be classified as huorns is open for debate. That having been said, it is certain that the trees of the Old Forest had a life-force and a will of their own, as shown unambiguously when the hobbits trekked through in the Fellowship of the Ring, and the trees altered their course and seemed to shift and move closer or farther away.

[Dynaviir]

Thanks, I was thinking something along the same lines.

I've always wondered about what Tolkien's thoughts were on the Old Forest, since it's described vaguely but obviously has some sort of huorn nature. Hmm...

Ah well, I guess maybe everyone was meant to have their own opinion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Osse]

what one must take into account regarding the old forest, was that Tolkien had written the first part of the fellowship without any clear idea where ultimately the book would go, as he states in his letters (rough quote) "The books started as a sequal to the hobbit, another adventure story, but soon became much more." It is unclear whether or not he intended by adding the references to Huorns and the old forest later in the series to indicate that what the old forest contained were indeed huorns. I am of the opinion that Old Man Willow certainly was one or was perhaps a forest sprite (?) Tolkien is quite vague on the manner of sprites and spirits which is most unlike him and unakin to the rest of his creations which are thorough and indepth. Tolkien himself states in his foreword to The Fellowship that he is still not happy with certain aspects which make his world incomplete.

Thanks for this post...it opened my mind; i had not previously thought about the old forests tree-inhabitants in depth before.

[Elentári]

Hmm yes, I had always wondered vaguely about the trees in the Old Forest, but I had not ever thought about the connection between Old Man Willow and the Huorns...I suppose they must be Huorns then...what else could they be?

[Finwe]

Treebeard said that some of the Huorns wanted revenge because of all the wood-cutting and tree-burning that was going on. The Brandybucks had done that exact thing in the Old Forest, so the trees' hostility is understandable. Cutting and burning a path through a forest isn't exactly going to endear you to the trees, now, will it?

[Orominuialwen]

I definitely think there were Huorns in the Old Forest and that Old Man Willow was one of them. The whole episode that led to the Bonfire glade seems to prove it completely.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, I should think that the sentient trees in the Old Forest were indeed Huorns of some sort. We know that originally Ents lived in forests apart from just Fangorn (Tasarinan, the woods of the Ered Luin, the forests of Cuivenen etc), so really a Huorn (originally an Ent) could be found anywhere; but since the Old Forest was once part of Fangorn anyway, the likelihood of the remnants of Ents being there is high. Probably their small population and the hemmed in size of their realm forced them to give up being true Ents, and revert to their tree-ish forms (probably ultimately the fate of all the Onodrim, in the face of the Dominion of Men). Perhaps the occasional one woke up from time to time, as did a particular old Ent that Treebeard knew, and went wondering; the 'giant' that Hal Gamgee saw.

The existence of Huorns, i.e. fallen-asleep-Ents, in the Old Forest raises an interesting possibility. Could they in fact have been the long-lost Entwives? Treebeard remarks that the Shire is 'country they would like' -- settling a small forest on the edge of the Shire (tamed but still natural and living countryside, full of nice gardens etc which is what the Entwives went in for) may have been just to their liking, only they couldn't sustain it and all fell asleep.

The fact that it was Old Man Willow complexifies this debate, of course.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

The existence of Huorns, i.e. fallen-asleep-Ents, in the Old Forest raises an interesting possibility. Could they in fact have been the long-lost Entwives? Treebeard remarks that the Shire is 'country they would like' -- settling a small forest on the edge of the Shire (tamed but still natural and living countryside, full of nice gardens etc which is what the Entwives went in for) may have been just to their liking, only they couldn't sustain it and all fell asleep.

I really like that thought. It sounds like an interesting possibility. It would explain why the entwives had never been found.

The fact that it was Old Man Willow complexifies this debate, of course.

What happened *there* was that a rather deluded ent thought 'wayhey! lots of women! I think I'll just tag along with the old Entwives...' and went off with them as they made their gardens. Well, they all fell asleep so he turned bitter inside because of his failiure and sat by the river drinking himself slowly into oblivion.

What an interesting theory!

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Funnily, I hadn't considered that one. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Could have possibilites, though, you know. In all honesty.

I think that, were the Huorns in the Old Forest indeed largely Entwives, Old Man willow was probably unconnected to them (if he was in fact a male Ent). The explanation for his being there would be, I think, that he was simply one of the original Entish inhabitants of that part of the greater Eriador forest before it was settled by the Entwives. Perhaps he reverted back to Huorn-like-form before the woods connectining the Old Forest to Fangorn were killed off; either way, he was probably already there when (if, of course, they did) the Entwives came. There were probably many such Huorns in the Forest, i.e. that weren't Entwives from Fangorn but Onodrim that had retreated to the Old Forest rather than Fangorn.

Although it may of course be true that all the Huorns in the Old Forest were this, and not Entwives at all. I'd like to think they were, though.

[Osse]

As would I.
Coming off the subject a little, and only posting here because the other threads regarding the entwives are either closed or don't retain interest, I was just wondering if anyone had any opinions on why if as Treebeard puts it: "Some of us are still true ents, and lively enough in our own fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the trees are just trees of course; but many are half-awake. Some are quite wide awake, and are few are, well, ah, well getting Entish . That is going on all the time."

Trees are constantly becoming Ents, and some Ents are becoming trees. My point here is why, if trees still become Ents, do not some become Entwives? Do Entwives come into existence through a different process?
Surely not all the trees that turn entish become male? Perhaps they only become Ents if there are Ents around, but if there were both around they'd become Entwives too?

Any thoughts?

Osse

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Halbarad]

Old Forest= Entwives? Interesting but I think unlikely. Fangorn describes the entwives as more like fruit trees while the ents were Oak, Beech and more unlovely trees without blossom and fruit. I thought about the Old Forest being Huorns because Fangorn used to extend that far North in ages past. (correct me if I'm wrong.)
As to whether Tolkien thought about the Old Forest having Huorns- I assume that he got the idea of Huorns or even ents from the Old Forest. Also the origin of Ents could be from the statement Sam makes near the beginning about his cousin Hal seeing a walking tree...a tale that was ridiculed by Sandyman. After all, he didn't know where it was going and his work in the Silmarillion makes no significant reference to Ents. Maybe Yvannah's idea?

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Halbarad ]

[Orodoliel]

I think the Old Forest is more likely to contain Huorns than Entwives.

If not uorns then what else could it be?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well, what I actually suggested was that the Hurons were Entwives, you know.

Nice point about the fruit-tree thing, Halbarad -- however, you are incorrect in saying that the 'idea' for Ents was taken from the Old Forest. There is reference to the Ents in a big way in the Sil; although they are normally referred to as the 'Shephards of the Trees'. Have a look at the chapter 'Of Aule and Yavanna' -- the one that talks about Dwarves -- and the origins of the Ents are described there. (Like he did with the model Dwarves of Aule, Illuvatar gives sentience to certain of the trees of Yavanna in the forests.)

Osse, I don't think the thing about trees 'morphing' into Ents is true. Obviously, as you say, this would make maleness and femaleness in Ents irrelevant. Clearly, as Frodo remarks upon, there were no young Ents ('Entings' as they are referred to) in Fangorn; the Ents were not able to reproduce themselves without their females.

Your quote, which I will give again:

"Some of us are still true ents, and lively enough in our own fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the trees are just trees of course; but many are half-awake. Some are quite wide awake, and are few are, well, ah, well getting Entish . That is going on all the time."

could, however, mean one of two things (perhaps both). Firstly that Huorn-trees, once Ents that had now fallen asleep, were beginning to almost wake up again from their hibernation, as it were.

The other possibility is that these trees were becoming Huorns, but never actually awoke into full Ents. This is an interesting thought, but I don't think it could be true. If it was the case, then trees everywhere would be doing this -- something that it is of course wholly unnatural for a tree to do. The Ents were a singular race sparked by Illuvatar; he did not give all trees the power to animate themselves, if only to a Huorn-like form.

Next suggestion. If there were Huorns (once Ents) left over in the Old Forest, independantly from Fangorn, would there not have been Entwives in this population? Perhaps there were, but then as they were all asleep anyway no-one knew anything about them. Again, it is possible that they all suddenly awoke again and took off, at the same time as the Fangorn Entwives, in a double migration (to destination unknown).
The point is that there is not really a reason (unless they too migrated) why the Old Forest, if its Ent/Huorn population was indeed seperate from that of Fangorn, should not contain female Huorns.

Just a final thought. Halbarad raises the point of the fruit-trees: there were evidently plenty such trees growing cultivated in the Shire. I admit it is extremely unlikely, but could these have been the Entwives? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Actually, the point here is that the Entwives could really have gone anywhere, reverted to Huorns, and entered total anonyminity. The only thing that speaks against this is the continued wakefulness of at least some of the Fangorn Ent inhabitance -- one might think that the Entwife settlement would be the same.

[Snowdog]

I had this consideration, being that in the 2nd Age, Minhiriath & Enedwaith were heavily forested, connecting the Old Forest & Fangorn, that it could be conceivable that the Entwives were wiped out by Numenor, cut down and used to build their ships? Just a thought....