Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
06-16-2004, 01:23 PM | #81 | ||
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
06-16-2004, 02:05 PM | #82 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Perhaps it isn't that hobbits are innately liars or truthful, it is just as I said earlier. That hobbits are like humans in all but size. Humans lie, some more than others.
If I had been in Bilbo's place, I would have probably lied about the Ring when I was first questioned. That doesn't mean that I am a pathological liar, any more than it makes Bilbo or any other hobbit. If they did indeed send archers, perhaps they were, like mentioned before, simply overlooked. If they did not, well then, they were lying. But this doesn't make the Shire full of thieves and liars. It makes whoever wrote the book or spread the rumor a liar, or perhaps he just had bad information. Maybe the troop of archers got halfway and chickened out, or got killed, or just came back and never told anyone.
__________________
I drink Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters! ~ Always remember: pillage BEFORE you burn. |
06-16-2004, 02:39 PM | #83 | |
Mighty Mouse of Mordor
|
Quote:
(I'm way off topic here Sorry) Cheers, Orofaniel
__________________
I lost my old sig...somehow....*screams and shouts* ..............What is this?- Now isn't this fun? >_< .....and yes, the jumping mouse is my new avatar. ^_^ |
|
06-16-2004, 05:40 PM | #84 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
Quote:
However, again, that may just be me.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
06-16-2004, 08:38 PM | #85 |
Laconic Loreman
|
Rarely ever
Kuruharan,
I myself rarely read the prologue, and yes I typically read the appendices last. I suggested to my nephew who hadn't read the books, but wanted to see the movie, to read the prologue just to get the background of the story. He never heard of LOTR until the movies came out so instead of telling him read the book before you go see the movie just read the prologue, skim through it, and get the plot down before you see the movie. I agree it's really up to the person, whether to read the prologue or not. (My ultimate plan succeeded, I got my nephew reading the books instead of just being a movie person) lol. |
06-17-2004, 07:29 AM | #86 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
|
Quote:
__________________
peace
|
|
06-17-2004, 08:28 AM | #87 | |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,743
|
Feanor, great point. A few lunkheads like Ted Sandyman and greedy busybodies like Lobelia Sackville-Baggins keep things interesting without being really dangerous. You've got to have something to rebel against, even in an idealized society. Otherwise you'll end up bored stiff. I hope Squatter won't mind if I borrow a quote from one of his old posts (from a thread which, incidentally, is good reading on its own hook):
Quote:
Kuru and Boromir88 -- different strokes, I guess. I love forewords, prologues, afterwords, footnotes, appendices, what have you. I live for that stuff, especially when it gives a glimpse inside the writing process. Some of my favorite bits from my favorite authors are from fore- or afterwords. |
|
06-17-2004, 10:16 AM | #88 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
I did not mean to imply that I don't like introductions, appendices, etc. Once I have purchased a book (assuming that the book is worthwhile) I'll read everything in it.
I enjoy the appendices in LOTR almost more than anything because they are so historical (and I do love my history). It is just that if I am making my first acquaintance with a book (say picked up from the shelf in a bookstore) I'll almost always dive into the middle of the story hoping to find something good. I never read the Intro before I get a book. (This was not how I made my acquaintance with Tolkien, by the way). Of course, I'm kind of weird because I have been known to read an entire series of books backwards or start in the middle and read to the end and then start at the beginning. This naturally leads to a great amount of confusion about the story. Perhaps I need to mend my ways. Anyway, In a loose comparison between the Shire and our world, it strikes me as odd (sort of) that people can be dissatisfied with an imperfect world and at the same time be dissatisfied with a perfect world. In an imperfect world there is too much suffering and hardship and in a perfect world it is too boring. It sounds like we are doomed to dissatisfaction. (Let's see if that comment stirs things up a little. )
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... Last edited by Kuruharan; 06-17-2004 at 10:17 AM. Reason: commas, commas, commas, |
06-17-2004, 01:18 PM | #89 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Quote:
Example: Bilbo. He was raised in part by his Took mother and her relations, which gave him a strong desire, and eventually a push, to go on his adventure. Of course, we can't ignore his Baggins side either, because what does he do every time he has a free moment? He thinks about his armchair in front of a roaring fire, and eggs and bacon. (Not that I blame him. Cram doesn't sound too appetizing.) But after he gets back home, he doesn't settle down and try to regain his neighbor's respect. He starts going on long hikes, visiting elves and dwarves and rangers. He does this because he has had a taste of something more, something different than what he had growing up all his life. So he's not totally dissatisfied with the Shire, it is just like he said: "...I am very fond of it, and of all the dear Shire; but I think I need a holiday." So while comfort is all very good and well in its own way, adventure is a lovely thing too.
__________________
I drink Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters! ~ Always remember: pillage BEFORE you burn. |
|
06-17-2004, 03:17 PM | #90 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Avalon
Posts: 211
|
On the topic of hobbits being liars, I agree that hobbits are not morally superior to humans, and that they are no more likely to lie than anyone else is. I also remembered that when Frodo dissapeared in the Prancing Pony he lied and said "I haven't dissapeared," then made up somethiong to explain why he suddenly went missing.
Although now I see why the Prologue isn't part of the appendices, it certainly makes more sense when it's read after reading the book. I heard once that maybe Tolkien did it like that so that once you've finished reading LotR you go back to see what was in that Prologue, and thus you're enticed to read the book all over again... . That actually did happen to me once. ~Carnie~
__________________
"When you talk, people can't tell if you're spelling the words right." Sister of The Elf Warrior |
06-17-2004, 03:38 PM | #91 | ||
Beloved Shadow
|
mistake?
Quote:
In Appendix A of ROTK Gandalf says- Quote:
So it seems to me that Thorin's trek and the subsequent death of Smaug definitely concerned later history and was worth more than a note in the annals of the Third Age, in spite of what the text in the Prologue says.
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. |
||
06-17-2004, 07:14 PM | #92 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
Quote:
Quote:
We need to start keeping a list.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
||
06-17-2004, 07:43 PM | #93 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
|
galadriel'smaiden wrote in post # 77.
Quote:
I'm only just now connecting this to Tolkien's elaboration of the idea of "Recovery" from "On Fairy-Stories" when he argues that fantasy is able to re-present the 'real world' to us in such a way that we notice things that we've too long taken for granted. This is why, I think, the Prologue comes at the beginning. It literally puts us into the right 'frame of mind' by getting us to think about not just the world he's created, but how that world is related to, reflects upon, comments upon our own world. As we learn more and more about Hobbits, and how they are like and unlike us, we learn more and more about ourselves. When the story gets underway, then, we are 'primed' to regard the rest of the world that the Hobbits move through in the same way. |
|
06-17-2004, 08:07 PM | #94 |
Beholder of the Mists
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,419
|
Just going back to the beginning of the Prologue. I just have to say that when I first read the book, the part where he talks about the hobbits being "an unobtrusive people", "more numerous formerly than they are today" struck me because it caused me to question myself (are there really hobbits?), and it also caused me to take this as a more real piece of literature. Now I know hobbits don't exsist, but I was amazed that he was actually writing this from the point of it being truth. I had never really seen anything like this in a fantasy book.
This also can apply to where he talks about the third age being long gone, and the lands of the world being changed. This also reinforces this not being a work of fiction, but more being a history instead. It also again makes you think.
__________________
Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance |
06-19-2004, 11:50 PM | #95 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where you want me to be
Posts: 1,036
|
Quote:
On a side note, in the notes it says- Quote:
What about Treebeard and Tom Bombadil? Or did Tolkien mean that when he went there were no Elves who lived in the First Age? Or could it be that the answer is that Treebeard and Tom Bombadil passed away (died or left Middle-Earth), since 'a time had come for the decline of all other speaking-peoples in Middle-Earth'? If the first possible is answer is correct, that would mean Glorfindel would have had to have left Middle-Earth, assuming he is the same Glorfindel of Gondolin, which I won't touch on as it isn't relevant. Your thoughts?
__________________
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. |
||
06-20-2004, 12:36 AM | #96 |
Beholder of the Mists
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,419
|
Fingolfin that is an interesting observance
I know that he means that there was no longer in Middle Earth any elves from the first age when Celeborn left. But, yes, what about Treebeard and Tom? Maybe this relates to the elves really being the only recorders who recorded what was going on all over Middle Earth in the first age. Treebeard and Tom never really wrote anything down, they were really only concered about what was going on directly around them, and I think that they wouldn't really care to ever write anything down. I highly doubt that they died. Especially because I don't exactly see how Tom in particular could die? Treebeard, yeah, probably has more of a chance because he actually ages. But Tom, does he even age?
__________________
Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance |
06-20-2004, 01:48 AM | #97 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where you want me to be
Posts: 1,036
|
Quote:
__________________
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. |
|
06-20-2004, 02:40 AM | #98 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
There are some interesting points made by Christopher Garbowski as regards the socieites of Middle Earth:
Quote:
This, as Rosebury points out, reflects Tolkien's political stance - 'anarchism'. The nation state (even if 'benevolent') threatens, & will ultimately destroy, the Heimat - 'the homeland (which) is organic, rooted in the past, always small, it warms the heart, it is as close as one's own body'. Its summed up, perhaps, in Merrry & Pippin's conversation in the Houses of Healing: Quote:
|
||
06-21-2004, 01:28 AM | #99 | |
Deadnight Chanter
|
the thing and the whole of the thing...
Prologue
…My dear Bagginses and Boffins, and my dear Tooks and Brandybucks, and Grubbs, and Chubbs, and Burrowses, and Hornblowers, and Bolgers, Bracegirdles, Goodbodies, Brockhouses and Proudfoots… And I hope I’m not too late, as week dedicated to each part is nearly over… Nonetheless… Having in mind lot of what preceeding posts are concerned with, I’d dare your scorn and say that this particluar discussion is mostly engaged in details, and leaves the thing and the whole of the thing aside. And he who breaks the thing to find… well, you know what said 'he' is up to. After all, what is the prologue about? True, we have author’s statement that it is ‘mostly about hobbits’, but should we take such statements at their face value? I believe not, and I’ll be explaining why in a short while Any time I reread the prologue (as I’ve done it yesterday, what with it being Sunday and blessed day for one’s freelance activities, reading included), three things inevitably pop up to mind. 1. It includes a mighty load of things not essential to the plot whatsoever 2. Things it concerns (i.e., hobbits and their habitat) feel essentially English 3. Such a prologue is unprecedented to my reading memory One at time than. Entry #1: I can’t help remembering A.P.Chekhov, Russian playwright with his saying: “if there is a rifle on the wall in act 1, it should be firing off at least in act 3”. And all the books I’ve read usually follow this scheme up neatly. I.e., there usually are no unneeded things. Tolkien, even apart from prologue, which is the treasury of such 'things unrequired for the development of the plot', is placing them here an there (wait till wer reach Bombadil, heh!). Tolkien is hinting to older history of the world he brings us into, and does that not only via ancient and neatly worked out names (which feel solid even for the unconscious), old legends and bits of untranlsated poetry, but by means of those unrequired things, those Hornblowers and Bracegirdles, which are completely unneeded, but form a background, some feeling on the border of one’s consicousness, that there is more to it than the plot we are about to read, that plot is just a tiny friction of the whole world. All of that is forming first in the prologue, where the walls are covered up in rifles and guns of all sorts, which, apart from firing, never make later appearence at all! Entry #2: I haven’t been to England ever. (To be honest, most westward of my journeys took me as far as Poland). So, the mental image I’ve got of England must be blurred and improper. But what strikes me right away, is how much English Shire feels. Apart from chronology, and Marcho-Blanco/Hengist-Horsa connotations indicated by Squatter, there is a feel of England in there (even for a man, (or especially for a man?) who’s mental image is formed by Donald Bisset, Edward Lear, Arthut Conan Doil ,Alan Alexander Miln and their set). And hobbits feel modern, too, quite apart frome the rest of the book, where guys in armour wonder about with great swords and do ‘deeds’. They are spatially and temporary out of place. Deliberate anachronisms, I daresay, what with all their 'waistkins', pipeweed, five'o'clocks and nearly modern social system. Now that is done on purpose, I believe, and strongly on purpose. Tolkien revealed part of his mind in his “On Fairy Stories” essey: Quote:
Now that is very true. But the truth can be extended to include humans that are alienated from us by depths of time. I believe that ‘modern’ and ‘English’ hobbits are necessary as conductors, as bridge to cover the gap between us with our ‘democracy’ and ethical code down to chaps with swords doing deeds. Those latter would seem strange and alien, if not for hobbits connecting us with them, who, by and by growing (but that happens later on), show that values of ‘deeders’ are not very far from our own, that we, after all, are of the same world, makes us feel for them by comparison. And now I’m smoothly on my Entry #3. Such a lengthy, maybe even boring (to some) prologue is there for that purpose. It hammers into reader's head the sense of ‘reality’ of the world to be opened up, besides that of ‘modernity’ and Englishness of the heroes to be, sets a stage for us to feel for heroes, not to look at the whole thing as another peculiar and antique thing, to make it ours. And that’s about the shape of it. cheers
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 06-23-2004 at 12:34 AM. |
|
06-23-2004, 09:21 AM | #100 | ||||||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Just catching up ...
Gadzooks! Who would have thought that so much could be written about the Prologue over such a short space of time, and still remain so pertinent and interesting. Kudos to all those posting. There are some fascinating points made here.
I’m playing catch-up again so, as is my wont, I’m just going to go ahead and post my thoughts on reading the Prologue (most of which have already been noted by others to some degree) and then pick up on one or two points made by others. As always, apologies for the length. I love the way that the Prologue is so Hobbit-centric (to borrow Fordim’s phrase), largely because I love Hobbits. And it makes sense that it should be, given that LotR was written (originally at least) as a sequel to The Hobbit in response to calls from readers to learn more about Hobbits. Here, before the story has even begun, Tolkien is satisfying that demand from his existing readers. The question of why not include this information in the Appendices was raised and has, I think, been well answered by Mr Underhill, Firefoot and Fordim, among others. I agree with the point that, like the First Forword, it draws us into the story by seeking to persuade us of the “fiction” that this all really happened and was compiled by the Hobbits in the Red Book of Westmarch. But what really struck me, on reading the Prologue, was the way in which it establishes an understanding of the nature of the characters that are to be central to the story. By doing so, Tolkien helps us identify with them and ensures that we are not surprised when they behave as they do in the story. This process manifests itself in a number of ways in the Prologue. First and foremost, Hobbits are established as likeable characters. They are described as a merry folk, good-natured and hospitable, who dress in bright colours, have mouths apt to laughter, delight in parties and are fond of simple jests. As Bêthberry says, they appreciate leisure. Yes, they have their vices, such as drinking, smoking and eating a lot, but these are themselves endearing (at least to me, as someone who indulges all three – perhaps that’s why I like Hobbits so much ). And their less endearing flaws (their parochialism and isolationism are mentioned here frequently) are not played up in the Prologue, or at least not in such a way as to cancel out the positive qualities with which we are presented. In short, given the way that Hobbits are presented to us here, how could we not fail to like them and look forward to hearing more about their adventures? The Prologue also helps us, the readers, to identify with these charming folk, from whom the central characters of the story are drawn. Even though Hobbits are described as being scared of the Big Folk, they are nevertheless identified as being closer to us than Elves or Dwarves. They are “normal” (and therefore not flawless, as has been noted), certainly moreso than the likes of the noble Aragorn and the lofty Elves, much as we may admire their qualities. And, in being described as such right at the outset, the Hobbit characters collectively become the “everyman” with whom the reader can closely identify in this enchanting, but often frightening, world. This sense is, I think, heightened by the fact that their society and way of living seems anachronistic in comparison with the rest of Middle-earth, as HerenIstarion noted. Others too have touched on this point in their posts. Davem said: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And, having presented us with these likeable folk with whom we, the readers, can identify, Tolkien goes on to outline those additional Hobbitish characteristics which, while not immediately apparent, are nevertheless of utmost importance to the storyline. They are described as “curiously tough”, “difficult to daunt or kill”, and able to “survive rough handling by grief, foe or weather in a way that astonished those who did not know them well”. This helps to explain how the central Hobbit characters, despite being from a diminutive and fun-loving race, are able to endure the incredible suffering and hardship which each of them undergoes on the Quest. (A similar picture was painted of Bilbo when Gandalf described him as being “as tough as a Dragon in a pinch” or something similar, although it is addressed in a more light-hearted manner – as indeed are the travails which Bilbo undergoes.) It also helps explain why, despite being uncomfortable with things with which they are not familiar (a result of their parochial nature), they are nevertheless resilient and adaptable when confronted with them. As Fordim said, although Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin (as well as Bilbo) are extraordinary characters: Quote:
Of course, we do not need Tolkien to tell us about their resilient nature in the Prologue to make them believable characters, but these passages in the Prologue do aid our understanding of the Hobbit characters and the way in which they interact with others and react to events in the story. And it also helps us understand how, once galvanised by Sam, Merry and Pippin, the Hobbit folk are able to rise up so effectively against their oppressors in the Scouring of the Shire. I would also agree with those who have said that, by presenting the Shire as an idyllic setting, the reader is able understand exactly what it is the Hobbits are fighting for, both throughout the Quest and during the Scouring. Son of Numenor put this very well when he said: Quote:
On a slightly different point, it is interesting how much Tolkien gives away about the outcome of the story in the Prologue, at least as regards the fates of the characters. As Lyta said: Quote:
********************** On a very minor point, I love the reference to “wild folk and wicked things” having “not heard of the King”. This ties up with a comment made by Bilbo in The Hobbit to that effect, and nicely explains why he said it, despite the region having had no king for a good many years. ********************** Finally, a quick response to Estelyn’s point: Quote:
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
||||||||
06-23-2004, 11:33 PM | #101 | |
Deadnight Chanter
|
Nice rounded up summary, SpM, thank you. And though it seems very much a post with which the discussion can be closed, I can not stand the temptation to pick up a little portion of your thread (so that is the way of collective discussion, one participant's thoughts being effect of another poster's argument)
So Quote:
But does not King with capital K and wild folk who know Him not ring any other bells on other levels?
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 06-23-2004 at 11:48 PM. |
|
06-24-2004, 03:47 AM | #102 |
Deadnight Chanter
|
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 06-24-2004 at 03:51 AM. |
02-24-2005, 09:14 PM | #103 | |
Beloved Shadow
|
I was reading Tolkien's letters today and stumbled across a little passage about hobbits that I thought belonged on this thread. I'm rather surprised that no one posted it before I got around to it.
letter 246- Quote:
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. Last edited by the phantom; 02-24-2005 at 09:37 PM. Reason: take out extra "e" |
|
02-25-2005, 04:20 AM | #104 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
Quote:
|
|
01-10-2008, 09:26 AM | #105 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
|
Looking back at the beginning of this thread reminds me that it was Fordim who initiated the discussion project! His introduction is well worth rereading.
I began thinking about the Prologue even before I actually reread it - I looked up information on war and weapons as concerning hobbits for another thread just a few days ago. This introduction to the book is an absolute essential for anyone writing a Hobbit RPG or fanfiction! There is so much invaluable information contained in it. I know that I read it very closely when beginning to write a story, and rereading it just might inspire me to finish it in the near future... The second part, 'Concerning Pipe-weed', contains spoilers about Merry's future - is it really necessary to have that at the beginning of the book, or would it have been better placed in the Appendices? The same thought applies to the 'Note on the Shire Records' - it is chockfull of spoilers! Now, I'm definitely a person who reads all introductions, forewords, even acknowledgements, when I read a book, so I assume I must have read this part before delving into the story, but I don't remember whether I realized the spoilers back then. It's been awhile! The future of Merry, Pippin and Sam and their offspring is mentioned, and the fact that Frodo writes the Red Book gives away the fact that he survived the War of the Ring. Does anyone remember realizing that when you first read the book? I would definitely have placed this section in the Appendices, to be read afterwards.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
01-10-2008, 12:41 PM | #106 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
01-10-2008, 01:13 PM | #107 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
|
This is an intriguing issue, Esty.
The concern over spoilers isn't part of traditional literary culture. It's part of pop culture--did it arise on the internet with the discussion of weekly TV series and movies? (Not to self, check out OED on "spoilers" and see if the word postdates Tolkien.) I could be wrong, but I doubt Tolkien himself would have been bothered by spoilers. After all, look how many times he rewrote some of his own stories, how many versions we have. He was interested in definitive versions. Books, for old time readers, were meant to be savoured for more than simply the plot. It was probably considered quite vulgar to be interested only in whodunnit or whahappened. It was the 'quality' of writing, the interest in how the writer choose to present the story and characters, that was supposed to provide the entertainment. Generations of clever young fellows spent (misspent?) their youth translating Greek and Latin not simply as an aid to demonstrating their knowledge of that language but to show their skill as writers in English, their command of style, technique, rhetoric, "colour." (Well, this was the pedagogical purpose behind the imposition of those school assignments. ) Novelty was not an especially important quality in literary merit. After all, much of the reading public already knew the plot of the ancient stories. So why did writers retell those stories? Because they saw new and different ways to tell them, new and different approaches, perspectives. So it was almost a situation where knowing the plot ahead of time was part of the reading process, being able to make comparisons and see new twists and turns, being able to appreciate how one was led up to the conclusion. So it didn't matter if readers guessed from the Prologue that Frodo survives: the interest was in his internal journey and how he came to survive. Novelty really I suppose only became significant with . . . novels.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
01-10-2008, 05:28 PM | #108 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
I absolutely agree with Bêthberry here. Tolkien's strength is not in surprising ending or a twist in the plot (the thing which is almost essential for a good novel), even the final revelation that the Shire is destroyed and that Sharkey is Saruman is not, in my opinon, that surprising twist, though it has very close to it.
As I said in the Foreword thread, I did not read the Prologue the first time I read FotR, yet it did not bother me in the slightest: I did not seem to miss anything (like knowing when old Toby started to grow his herbs) and, of course, I was not affected by the spoilers - at least in the beginning. Nevertheless, it was quite clear to me that Frodo survives and I must say in Cirith Ungol I did not think for a second that he could be really dead, and I'm sure any spoilers would not play any role in this, whether I read them or not. Quote:
It's not that I would completely ignore Frodo's quest and the storyline: of course not, I was thrilled at many moments, I was moved, I shared his or his fellows' feelings. But it was not the first place for me, and only in later readings this gained more and more importance for me.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
|
01-11-2008, 01:54 PM | #109 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
|
Davem, thanks for the reminder that not all we read today was originally printed. Still, when it was included it was within JRRT's lifetime, so he must not have seen the possibility of spoilers as a disadvantage.
Bêthberry, excellent thoughts! There were, of course, murder mystery writers back in Tolkien's day, so I assume the authors and readers of 'whodunits' must have been interested in keeping others from knowing the murderer, but your remarks on the non-existent role of spoiler warnings in traditional literature are a valuable addition to this discussion. And you make an interesting connection between novels and novelty! Legate, I enjoyed your post about your personal reading experience. I find it fascinating to see how differently the same book is perceived by different people - and even by the same person at different times of her/his life.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
02-20-2008, 11:24 AM | #110 | ||
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 893
|
Extra Elves!
Well, to the Prologue, plenty of strange and interesting titbits here.
From the description of Hobbits, did anyone else think Leprechauns? Their ‘magical’ disappearing acts (to us ‘Big Folk’), diminutive size, dressing in green and yellow, curly hair, delight in simple jests and, to anticipate, Mad Baggins appearing with a bang and a flash laden with gold and jools. Maybe the Irish retain the last folk memories of Middle Earth, corrupted by the passage of millennia though they be? The Harfoots’ section reminded me of ‘Of Dwarves and Men’. Here it seems as if the Harfoots, living on the Eastern foothills of the Misty Mountains in ancient times must have been the food-suppliers for Khazad-Dum. Ancient hobbit settlements throughout Eriador sound intriguing, watch out in your next RPG, that Barrow might turn out to be an abandoned hobbit-hole! Now we come to a really interesting bit- Quote:
Quote:
Always been interested in the ‘Bounders’ and the wandering Hobbits that lived outside the Shire. I wonder if life was a little less comfortable on the marches of the Shire, even given the Rangers’ protection? The riddle ‘Authorities’ made me smile, sounds like a version of the MCC earnestly debating the merits of silly-mid-off (that’s cricket for the “colonists” information!). By the way did you notice that Merry eventually became a philologist? I guess it would be stretching the suspension of disbelief too far for Pippin to take up such an interest, as he merely becomes an ancient historian!
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion |
||
02-20-2008, 11:48 AM | #111 | |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
|
Quote:
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
|
02-20-2008, 12:57 PM | #112 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
And yes, Elmo may be right.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
||
02-21-2008, 08:08 AM | #113 | |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 893
|
Extra Elves
Hi Elmo & Legate,
I see your points but I guess it depends on whether you class Harlindon and Forlindon as 'belonging to' the Grey Havens, and whether they are 'in reach of the Shire' (admittedly closer than Rivendell I suppose). In my head at least I'm going to stick with some elven settlement at the Southern end of the Ered Luin. Another point to consider is that during the Second Age Sauron over-ran all of Eriador apart from Rivendell, which would argue against a (very) ancient settlement of High elves in Minhiriath or Enedwaith. As to the 'blank spaces' on the map, I've always thought they indicated lack of knowledge rather than lack of inhabitants, considering, Quote:
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion |
|
02-21-2008, 10:11 AM | #114 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Yes, but speaking specifically about Enedwaith and Minhiriath, I was not backing my thoughts by the fact that they are empty spaces but by what is said about them in LotR and in UT. And any larger Elven settlement down there would have been mentioned, I'm sure. The Elves were diminishing and leaving Middle-Earth, not spreading.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-21-2008, 10:25 AM | #115 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Raynor Unwin, in a talk at the Church House Bookshop back in 1981 to celebrate the publication of UT, told of when Pauline Baynes went to see Tolkien about some difficulties she was having over a Poster-map of Middle-earth she'd been commissioned to paint: she'd noticed that when the map was reproduced on such a large scale there was a lot of empty space. Apparently Tolkien was very solicitous & helped her out by simply inventing some features/places on the spot for her to insert. It seems that the real reason for the blank spaces on the map was more mundane - that Tolkien hadn't realised they were there, & when they were pointed out to him he simply made up stuff to fill them....
|
02-23-2008, 05:42 PM | #116 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 893
|
Hi davem and Legate,
Points taken indeed, I especially liked 'simply made up stuff', which in a way sums up the entire Legendarium I can imagine Tolkien making up a map feature on the spur of the moment then later weaving an intricate web of story and philology to explain its name and history. If we had been fortunate enough for him to live a thousand years I bet there would be few blank spaces! Agreed on the lack of large settlements, I doubt there's an unmentioned Gondolin lurking in Minhiriath somehow! However I feel that there will be somebody around, even if just wandering elves, 'outsider' hobbits, Druedain, Rangers, Wild Men, Trolls etc. This is partly from the point of view that people always (on our world) move into new territory unless it is entirely inhospitable, and also from the books themselves. Whenever the protagonists move into a new area they meet new, and often unexpected inhabitants, eg. the three Trolls, Beorn, Tom Bombadil, Lothlorien (from Hobbits' point of view), Faramir, the Woses etc. Only the Trollshaws and Hollin appear properly deserted, the Brown lands are patrolled by orcs and even Midgewater has its midges (and, I strongly suspect, Mewlips). Many of these people are hidden away and therefore would not be shown on maps unless directly encountered by the mappers. (I guess you can tell I'm pro-Giant!)
__________________
Rumil of Coedhirion |
11-25-2009, 09:10 AM | #117 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Taconic Mountains
Posts: 111
|
One of the first things I noticed about the Prologue is it contains frequent references to and information about events that occur after the events of the rest of the novel. Apparently Tolkien is happy that readers will know in advance that many of the central characters who will be going into all sorts of dangerous situations during the course of the War of the Ring will survive. Interesting and unusual for a Prologue, but I think it's effective and does not detract from the rest of the book. As Fordim Hedgethistle explains above, one of the purposes of this Prologue is to treat the fiction of the book as being historical and derived from older primary works, rather than a fictional story told by an author.
The next thing I noticed was a questionable grammatical usage, and I'm unsure, because I know that Tolkien was a master the language, whether it's just a typographical error introduced during the publication, or was done on purpose. I was taught that "farther" and "farthest" should be used (instead of "further" and "furthest") when discussing purely physical, geographical distances. Yet we read on page 7 about the three Elf-towers on Tower Hills, that the "tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound." Quote:
Last edited by Mugwump; 11-25-2009 at 09:19 AM. |
||
11-25-2009, 09:22 AM | #118 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Further/Farther
I'm actually really curious about this and need to look into when and where this rule sprung up.
The reason I say this is that countless, countless, countless British Victorian novels consistently use "further" for "farther." Which makes me inclined to say it's either an American rule, or one that wasn't created until after that era. In which latter case it might simply be Tolkien deliberately evoking an older feeling, or simply not being aware of the newer rule as he was steeped in older culture (of course, if he knew, I have the feeling he'd deliberately ignore it). Consequently when I encounter "further" for "farther" in my reading I like to think of it as a construction along the lines of "I should like" for "I would like"--something that is deliberately and delightfully British.
__________________
Got corsets? |
11-25-2009, 09:50 AM | #119 | |||
Dead Serious
|
Mnemo is perfectly right about Tolkien's attitude towards "farther" and "further"--he makes a direct reference to this in one of his Letters--let me see if I can dig up the reference in the 23 minutes before class...
Aha! Here we are: Quote:
--emphasis Tolkien's own Quote:
Quote:
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|||
11-25-2009, 09:55 AM | #120 |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Taconic Mountains
Posts: 111
|
Bingo--I think you've got it! Using further in that sense must've been merely standard idiomatic British English of Tolkien's day, just as of free will meant of [his/her/my/our/your/their] own free will.
|
|
|