Do Hobbits get Lung Cancer? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-08-2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

like Numenoreans they don't seem prone to illness generally - premature deaths tend to be accidental.

I'm not so sure- after all, both Hobbits and Dunedain were badly affected by the Great Plague.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-08-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

I'm not so sure- after all, both Hobbits and Dunedain were badly affected by the Great Plague.

She said generally. Great Plague is Great Plague. Both the Hobbits and the Dúnedain were affected less than the other nations. After all, "Periannath survive, but suffer great loss." (Tale of the Years) And concerning the Dúnedain, I'll be careful. Most of the population of both Arnor and Gondor were "normal" Men, and in Gondor the Númenorean blood was far more weakened than in Arnor. In Arnor the Dúnedain were strongest in Arthedain, but Cardolan was the part which was affected the most. And no doubt there was some special aim, some will of Sauron that supported the death of the royal family in Gondor.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-08-2007, 10:48 AM

True; but also the plague is said to have decreased in virulence as it spread northward. This is in fact what happens in most RW epidemics, like the Black Death: the most deadly mutations of the disease agent tend to kill quickly, thereby depriving themselves of hosts.

________

It is also said that in the Shire in the annus mirabilis 1420 "no one was ill," which implies that in ordinary years some Hobbits were ill. Gaffer Gamgee suffered from arthritis. While the Shire is in many ways idyllic, it was no Lorien.

And Lotho does have pimples!

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-08-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

True; but also the plague is said to have decreased in virulence as it spread northward. This is in fact what happens in most RW epidemics, like the Black Death: the most deadly mutations of the disease agent tend to kill quickly, thereby depriving themselves of hosts.

Definitely. But I believe both factors played their roles here. Hobbits are hobbits and Dúnedain are Dúnedain. That is, in my opinon, why neither of them were affected even though smoking (among other reasons named in this thread).

Mithalwen · 12-08-2007, 01:12 PM

I will cheerfully admit that I had forgotten about the great plague but I would point out that isolated healthy populations can be particularly vulnerable to a newv disease as has been shown in our own world when local populations have been destroyed by diseases unwittingly imported by colonists and conquerors, to whom the same disease was far less lethal because they had established some immunity

I do wonder that given their healthy appetites and supply of vittles the no one was ill refers more to the relatively minor indispositions that accompany over indulgence rather than serious illness. I would have to check this out but my memory (which we have already established is imperfect)

cannot recall any specific hobbit being ill other than Frodo and nor any mention of any hobbit skilled in healing. Though didn't Bilbo give the gaffer some liniment for his arthritis - which was surely given his age and occupation osteo arthritis causes by "wear and tear". I would point out that by saying "not prone to illness generally " I didn't mean that I thought Hobbits had an elvish imperviousness to illness and age. There is a difference.

I doubt that the modern lifestyle police would approve of the hobbits calorie intake and attitude that it was unhealthy to be lean either .... nor of the consumption of more than a few glasses of old winyards a week for the sake of one's heart...

As for Tolkien himself - smoking can exacerbate stomach ulcers and he did (according to Carpenter) hope to match his longlived Suffield (?) relatives.

So pipe smoking is not a good idea either (so saith Auntie Mith). Oral cancer is not fun and pipe smokers also shorten their life expectancy by being irritating and tapping the wretched things out. I am sure strangulation is a major cause of death amongst them...

Bêthberry · 12-08-2007, 02:59 PM

Given that we are talking about the Third Age, would it be likely that Hobbits would recognize a respiratory illness as in fact "cancer"? Wouldn't they be more likely to have a very different vocabulary for diseases and discomforts?

Cancer became the word for the medical pathology circa 1600--interestingly, because wasn't tobacco introduced to Europe around that time, after the new world invasions? Before that, the word tended to denote the astrological sign and the word "canker" was used for bodily complaints.

I'm sure there's a great deal in medieval medical vocabulary that would be great fun to apply to Middle-earth, in particular relating to spitting, spewing, coughing, hacking, pustules, open sores, running sores, fevers and agues, to say nothing of the theory of humours.

Hmmmm. Hmmm. Do I hear the sounds of an RPG strumming in the back ground here? Yes, a story of why the elves tended not to pay much attention to the hobbits. Perhaps the elves could not stand the experience of watching bodily decline and disability? I wonder if they would be grossed out by the effects of the gift? Certainly death was a great shock to Arwen.

Either that or REB IV, the Last Homely Old Folks Home.

Lindale · 12-09-2007, 01:42 PM

I do believe that the lifestyle and the lack of pollution in the Shire has caused much to the advantage of the Hobbits' resilience when it comes to the ring and physical diseases.

If I may add so, I think that the simple and at some point "rustic" composition of the Shire has also shaped their morals, generally--Frodo and Sam and Bilbo, and also at some point Lobelia.

12-08-2007, 10:48 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,302	True; but also the plague is said to have decreased in virulence as it spread northward. This is in fact what happens in most RW epidemics, like the Black Death: the most deadly mutations of the disease agent tend to kill quickly, thereby depriving themselves of hosts. ________ It is also said that in the Shire in the annus mirabilis 1420 "no one was ill," which implies that in ordinary years some Hobbits were ill. Gaffer Gamgee suffered from arthritis. While the Shire is in many ways idyllic, it was no Lorien. And Lotho does have pimples! __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 12-08-2007 at 10:55 AM.

12-08-2007, 01:12 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,449	I will cheerfully admit that I had forgotten about the great plague but I would point out that isolated healthy populations can be particularly vulnerable to a newv disease as has been shown in our own world when local populations have been destroyed by diseases unwittingly imported by colonists and conquerors, to whom the same disease was far less lethal because they had established some immunity I do wonder that given their healthy appetites and supply of vittles the no one was ill refers more to the relatively minor indispositions that accompany over indulgence rather than serious illness. I would have to check this out but my memory (which we have already established is imperfect) cannot recall any specific hobbit being ill other than Frodo and nor any mention of any hobbit skilled in healing. Though didn't Bilbo give the gaffer some liniment for his arthritis - which was surely given his age and occupation osteo arthritis causes by "wear and tear". I would point out that by saying "not prone to illness generally " I didn't mean that I thought Hobbits had an elvish imperviousness to illness and age. There is a difference. I doubt that the modern lifestyle police would approve of the hobbits calorie intake and attitude that it was unhealthy to be lean either .... nor of the consumption of more than a few glasses of old winyards a week for the sake of one's heart... As for Tolkien himself - smoking can exacerbate stomach ulcers and he did (according to Carpenter) hope to match his longlived Suffield (?) relatives. So pipe smoking is not a good idea either (so saith Auntie Mith). Oral cancer is not fun and pipe smokers also shorten their life expectancy by being irritating and tapping the wretched things out. I am sure strangulation is a major cause of death amongst them... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

12-08-2007, 02:59 PM	#6
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,983	Ill Bill Given that we are talking about the Third Age, would it be likely that Hobbits would recognize a respiratory illness as in fact "cancer"? Wouldn't they be more likely to have a very different vocabulary for diseases and discomforts? Cancer became the word for the medical pathology circa 1600--interestingly, because wasn't tobacco introduced to Europe around that time, after the new world invasions? Before that, the word tended to denote the astrological sign and the word "canker" was used for bodily complaints. I'm sure there's a great deal in medieval medical vocabulary that would be great fun to apply to Middle-earth, in particular relating to spitting, spewing, coughing, hacking, pustules, open sores, running sores, fevers and agues, to say nothing of the theory of humours. Hmmmm. Hmmm. Do I hear the sounds of an RPG strumming in the back ground here? Yes, a story of why the elves tended not to pay much attention to the hobbits. Perhaps the elves could not stand the experience of watching bodily decline and disability? I wonder if they would be grossed out by the effects of the gift? Certainly death was a great shock to Arwen. Either that or REB IV, the Last Homely Old Folks Home. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 12-10-2007 at 08:40 AM.

12-09-2007, 01:42 PM	#7
Lindale Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: midway upon... in a forest dark Posts: 975	I do believe that the lifestyle and the lack of pollution in the Shire has caused much to the advantage of the Hobbits' resilience when it comes to the ring and physical diseases. If I may add so, I think that the simple and at some point "rustic" composition of the Shire has also shaped their morals, generally--Frodo and Sam and Bilbo, and also at some point Lobelia. __________________ The heart does things for reasons Reason itself cannot comprehend. - Blaise Pascal Legal Madness.