Minas Tirith as Constantinople?

[The Sixth Wizard]

I have recently been reading quite a bit about Medieval history, and one thing that struck me was the similarity between Gondor and the late Byzantine Empire.

• Gondorians are from a fallen city across the sea, which fell from prominence. This would be Rome... The religious differences between the 'faithful' and the King's Men could be interpreted as the Great Schism.
• Gondor and Byzantium are in gradual decline, but the thing I noticed was that both were losing old technological secrets. Their old technologies were the things that were letting them hold on for so long (Greek Fire, Numenorean walls, etc.)
• The western heavy knights that reinforced Byzantium throughout the ages could be the Rohirrim.
• Both had held far-off lands before, but had been pushed back to nearly a single city.
• The Ottoman navy was a key factor in the fall of Constantinople (Corsairs).
• Both were the only powers at the time to employ scouting (rangers).
• Both wars saw the use of gunpowder for practically the first time, only on the 'evil' side (see Great Turkish Bombard on Wikipedia)
• **very interesting** The symbol of the city of Constantinople was a moon. (though technically the symbol of Minas Tirith was a sun, but whatever...)

And numerous more I'm sure. These are probably just coincidences, but they were interesting to compare. Do you think Tolkien derived some of the story from the Byzantine Empire's fall? In which other places in the book are similarities with real history?

(by the way, yes, this is what I was obsessed with after going off the Downs for a few months )

[Lindale]

M. Tirith is not a melting point of two great cultures as Byzantium was of Asia and Europe.

But yeah, nice analogy. Minas Anor, then Minas Tirith; Byzantium, then after Constantine died it was renamed Constantinople (although I'm not very sure if Wiki is right). MTirith became MTirith because it serves as a guard against Minas Morgul, and at some point defended by the Great River. Although I don't think MTirith has much gardens before Aragorn; the only gardens were at the Houses of Healing, right? Constantinople; a city where an emperor could sit, readily defended, with easy access to the Danube or the Euphrates frontiers, his court supplied from the rich gardens and sophisticated workshops of Roman Asia, his treasuries filled by the wealthiest provinces of the empire, as Wiki says.

[The Might]

Actually, I have always seen Vienna as Minas Tirith.
For the Turks it was the key to gain passage into western Europe, just as Minas Tirith was the key city that Sauron needed to destroy. Both cities were in bad condition when reinforcements arrived. Both times reinforcements were cavalry (Rohirrim / Polish hussars).
Also, the main difference is that Vienna just like MT withstood the assault, while Constantinople did not.

[Lindale]

Oh well. We can't really expect that Minas Tirith is to be a quasi-Constantinople or any other city right? That would've robbed the wonder of Tolkien, if he was a plain copycat. But as there is nothing new under the sun, and that in lit classes Tolkien is one of those writers who follow (whether they intend to or not) archetypes. And then notice the trends of socio-politics of cities, real ones and those that are fictional yet well-written: they follow patterns that are a little different and at the same time a lot different from one another.

Cheers from little Lindale.

[The Might]

I don't believe that using historical events as inspiration is being a copycat.
Is Tolkien then a copycat because when he speaks of the sinking of Numenor he clearly used the myth of Atlantis as inspiration? I doubt it.
And one must admit there are certain similarities between events happening in Middle-earth and historical events.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Well, I must say that Minas Tirith WAS (to my memory) quite a mixed bag of cultures, certainly more so than any of the other cities. Perhaps Eriador had more of a mix, but elf cities, dwarf dwellings, Rohan and Mirkwood kept to themselves mostly, whereas MT had all of the coastal regions coming and going, and many peoples seeking refuge there.

I think the Byzantine Empire's decline during the Dark Ages is the most similar to Gondor's decline than any other historical event, also the fact that they remained the most sophisticated and advanced than other cultures in many ways even when in decline. Their population suffered like Gondor's mainly because of plague, civil war and foreign mass invasions (say, the Wainriders).

I also find it interesting that in Middle Earth's First Age, evil came from the North, which correlates to Germanic invasions of Rome... likewise in the Second Age it was decay of society in Westernesse, like the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and in the Third Age it came from the East, which is where the Byzantine Empire was conquered from.

**Great Turkish Bombard = Grond**

Also, the main difference is that Vienna just like MT withstood the assault, while Constantinople did not.

Well, fair enough.

[Lindale]

I never said Tolkien was a copycat. But when you think of it, all stories at some point resemble one another. Ah well. We're all agreed that Tolkien conceptualized MT really well.

Nice analogies, I repeat, though

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think Tolkien did in many respects think of MT in Byzantine terms, or rather as a Rome-Constantinople combo (he did once liken Elessar's coronation to the rise of a new Holy Roman Empire).

On the other hand, there's a parallel to Vienna, too- not only the HRE thing, but also the resemblance of the Pelennor Fields to the siege of Vienna in 1683, when the high-water mark of the Muslim assault on Europe was broken (in great part) by the charge of Jan Sobieski and his Polish knights.

[The Sixth Wizard]

I have heard that Aragorn is likened to a Scottish or English king, maybe Scandinavian, however I watched the television program so long ago, I can't remember many of the details. Does anyone know of similarities between Aragorn and any kings?

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

I have heard that Aragorn is likened to a Scottish or English king, maybe Scandinavian, however I watched the television program so long ago, I can't remember many of the details. Does anyone know of similarities between Aragorn and any kings?

Well one king comes to mind when I think of Aragorn: King Alfred The Great!
Alfred was a King who fiercly defended England from the invading Vikings led by their leader, Guthrum. He drove them out and ruled England with a just firm hand.

Alfred reminds me of how Aragorn ruled Gondor after the War of the Ring, but anything before that I'm lost.

[Nogrod]

I'm quite sure the British / English / Anglian / Saxon / Irish / Celt / Pictish etc. kings have been near to Tolkien's heart and it would not be too farfetched to find some inspiration to his stories there.

But still I must say that bringing together the actual histories of Rome, Constantinople and Vienna to bring forwards one story of a place called Minas Tirith against a threat from the east would be more likely the answer - looking at Tolkien's learning, fascination of history, prejudices and the way he seemed to have worked.

So no copycatting or other clear imitations but making new compilations of things that can be interpreted as having a similar kind of symbolic meaning and place in the universe he was knitting together.

Good points people! I do love these games of interpretations. Let's just not hold them too literal as the fruitfulness of an idea oftentimes proves to be more important than any claimed right or truth of a certain one interpretation.