Morgoth and Doriath

[Rikae]

Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment.
~Of Beren and Lúthien

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I never said that the silmaril increased his powers. . .it increased his furry no doubt.

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

There was only one time he could enter and that was when he had the silmaril in his stomache. . . .I belive that the fate quote referes as much to the fate of the silmaril and Beren as it does to Cacharot, or rather that these cannot be seperated.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter.

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, the use of "and" implies that both fate and the Silmaril were necessary, if I read this correctly...

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Originally Posted by Rikae

If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

Maybe. But Melkor did not put his power upon you, neither are you related to Draugluin, nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed. Several causes mentioned do not imply that one of them wouldn't be enough on its own.

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

Originally Posted by Raynor

nor does the fire and anguish of hell burn in you .

Mac might disagree...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?

But you wouldn't. . .there would be no reason for Tolkien to put you in his works.

Anyways unless you are willing to bite of Berens hand and enter a mortal combat with Huan, then no :P

Actually for me the main thing is that the faith of Arda rests in the silmarils and are bound to their faith, which means that when the fell beast Rikae swallows the silmaril she becomes a part of that faith. . . .if she was not already in advance.

[Rikae]

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves.

Oh, I disagree. I think the whole elaborate hounding of Hurin's family was only indirectly about them: Morgoth's purpose was to twist Hurin and reforge him into a weapon against Doriath, one who could bring his malice inside the Girdle. Remember, Melkor strove thoughout to show Thingol in particular in the worst possible light. He bloody well knew where Hurin ultimately would go when he got out, a proud, bitter old man bent on vengeance. Revealing Gondolin's location and destroying Brethil were side benefits. Doriath was the target.

[Raynor]

My point was that Melkor did not and could not have prepared the strife between the elves to the level of detail that was mentioned; he sowed seeds of evil, which later developed rather independently. As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rikae

IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny?

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Yes he could, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Silmarils. . .he was clearly more powerful than Melain and therefor she would have been able to hinter him.

Then the question remains - why didn't he?

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up.

I never said you said that.
Raynor said:

I don't see how the text implies that the power of the silmaril alone would not have sufficed.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, is there any specific reason for that?

Well, to be honest, I couldn't think of any quote from the text which explicitly states that. It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

In my opinion, this quote cuts both ways. It can even be interpreted that fate simply "directed" Carcaroth's direction/intention, while it was only the silmaril that increased his power.

You might be right. I just noticed that, when Beren enters Doriath, Tolkien uses the word "doom" while here he uses "fate".
But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has. I mean, sure, the Silmarils contain the light of the two trees and were hallowed by Varda, but nevertheless they remain the work of only an Elf.
I think Rikae is right by pointing out the "and".

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Then why would JRR feel it necessary to even mention fate, if the Silmaril alone were sufficient?

Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

It's just hard to imagine that a dragon is more powerful than a Maia. At least not one of Melian's dimension.

Well, I guess all it's left to imagination alone in this case.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has.

Well, I would say this would be similar to the one ring: it increases the power according to the measure of the possessor.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

(edit: cross-posted like crazy)

Yeah, it looks like it's BD happy hour now

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Because it was a factor that occurred too in this particular instance.

Fair enough. Do you have an example of a case where there was no fate or doom involved?

[Raynor]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ; judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ; judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.

I believe the burden of proof is on you, as you are the one claiming that something which never appears in the books and which the explicit mention of "fate" in the instances that DO appear implies could not happen, could.
Of course, it is possible. It's also possible that a troop of hobbits with spears could defeat the fleet of Numenor - but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Raynor]

As I stated, my position is that the quote cuts both ways. If you are arguing that only a single interpretation is valid, you need to provide that elusive qualifier.