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Old 03-09-2007, 04:17 AM   #1
Raynor
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The weak overcoming the strong.
I agree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #131
[In the Story of Beren and Luthien the Elfmaiden] we meet, among other things, the first example of the motive (to become dominant in Hobbits) that the great policies of world history, 'the wheels of the world', are often turned not by the Lords and Governors, even gods, but by the seemingly unknown and weak – owing to the secret life in creation, and the pan unknowable to all wisdom but One, that resides in the intrusions of the Children of God into the Drama.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR
Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR
I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great.
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Old 03-09-2007, 11:24 AM   #2
Thenamir
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Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Thenamir has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
For a humourous look at the relative power of Sauron and Gandalf (or just for demented mathematics majors), see this page for a weird look at Tolkien as Calculus.
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:14 PM   #3
Mansun
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What were the Powers of a Balrog?

From: Erik Tracy

The Balrogs were originally Maiar, angelic beings of lessure stature than the Valar (like Morgoth), but immortal beings which nonetheless possessed considerable power. They were chiefly spirits of fire which meant they could control and create fire about them, but they also could control and use "magic" (See Magic in Middle-earth). Notice the confrontation between the Balrog of Moria and Gandalf. He tries to hold the door to Balin's Tomb, but the Balrog uses a "counter spell" to open the door which results in the door breaking:
"...I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door...Then something came into the chamber- I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs." (Fellowship of the Ring)
Clearly, the Balrog knew that there was a spell on the door and also knew that another coeval spirit put it there. It also used a counter spell to gain control of the door. Although Balrogs are not depicted as conversant this does not mean they are merely strong and brutish. They are Maiar and would therefore have knowledge (i.e. magic) that in most likelihood surpassed the Elves and certainly all Mortals.

Balrogs were immensely strong and powerful. Their mere presence was enough to cause fear and inaction in their enemies. Notice the response of Legolas and Gimli when they first see the Balrog in Moria:
"He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear...But it was not the trolls that had filled the Elf with terror...Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face." (Fellowship of the Ring)
[URL]

As can be seen, Balrogs were fiercesome opponents and NEVER to be taken lightly. They were Morgoth's most deadly servants after Sauron, & as it appears they were never under any direct command from Sauron, so they were more or less their own bosses. If only the Witch King could deliver such power!


Quote:
...''So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course, he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than the release of St. Peter from prison.''...

[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, (#156)] [URL]
So, as it appears, if the Witch King had battled with Gandalf, you would see the real Gandalf the White uncloaked. On the basis of power, victory must surely be awarded to Gandalf as a result.


Quote:
Certainly Sauron knew of the existence of the Balrog (especially at the point when his orcs entered Moria), and the Balrog seems to have tolerated the presence of Sauron's orcs. Yet I do not believe that Sauron could have controlled or commanded the Balrog - at this time he lacked the One Ring which held a large part of his native power. Without the One Ring, Sauron would not have had the ability to dominate a will as strong as a Balrog.
Is this a dead giveaway that if even Sauron could not control a Balrog without the Ring, the Balrog was the most powerful enemy after the Dark Lord, even perhaps in these circumstances on the same level?

Last edited by Mansun; 03-11-2007 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:32 AM   #4
Raynor
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Originally Posted by Mansun
Is this a dead giveaway that if even Sauron could not control a Balrog without the Ring, the Balrog was the most powerful enemy after the Dark Lord, even perhaps in these circumstances on the same level?
A dead give-away? Surely you don't consider Erik's speculation as hard proof.
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