Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
10-04-2006, 06:20 PM | #321 | |
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
|
10-04-2006, 06:51 PM | #322 |
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States.
Posts: 5,076
|
Well, I think I'll say no more. If Boromir88 can write such a wonderful post and still not convince you, then I don't think I could, either. There was another argument I'd come up with, but I don't think it will be necessary.
-- Folwren
__________________
A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis |
10-05-2006, 10:33 AM | #323 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 128
|
Wings or no wings, the quote below is the only thing I've ever read that changed the way I imagine Balrogs when I read about them. Not sure if I appreciate that or not, obloquy!
Quote:
Regardless, NO VOTE from me because I think later Balrogs had wings, couldn't use them for flight, but could fly if they chose to. A simple "yes" or "no" vote doesn't suffice.
__________________
"Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself." |
|
01-25-2007, 10:23 AM | #324 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Balrogs have wings if they wanted them
In the beginning, when the greater spirits went down to Arda, they could walk unclothed. If they had appearance at all, it was of their own choosing. It is debatable as to whether or not those choices were fixed when middle earth was sundered from Valinor and the west.
Personally, I believe that the form a Balrog chose was a reflection of their nature and was therefore full of fire and darkness. As you well may know, Melkor often strode the halls of middle earth in whatever form he chose. He is, however, much greater than a mere Balrog. Only at the end did he continually use the dark terrible form he is best known for and even then - it was most likely still his choice. Balrogs have wings if it suits them. As pure spirits, they can most certainly fly but have no need for wings. Last edited by Flavius; 01-25-2007 at 10:27 AM. |
01-25-2007, 10:40 AM | #325 | |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
|
That old chesnut...
Quote:
The counter argument is that Melkor imprisoned the spirits in the bodies of the Balrogs and they were shrouded in shadow and flame. Of course, this has probably been discussed before in this thread but I am, at this time, too tied to go a-looking.
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
|
01-25-2007, 10:46 AM | #326 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
You'll hopefully forgive me for not posting all of my sources for this information. Instead I'll merely direct you here. |
|
01-25-2007, 12:16 PM | #327 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Obloquy wrote:
Quote:
|
|
01-25-2007, 12:31 PM | #328 |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
|
If there are not quotes, I think that it stands to reason that they would be permanently in their bodies. Or else, they would not be identified as Balrogs but 'evil Maia', their physical appearance would label them as Balrogs instead. That is how it strikes me, anyway...
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
01-25-2007, 02:19 PM | #329 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
Additionally we recognize the affinity Tolkien's mythos have with biblical stories of the corruption of angels to the service of the devil. In those stories the angels were corrupted not just by affiliating themselves with Satan, but by indulging in activities that were reserved for true incarnates, particularly sex relations. While this is not evidence in itself, Tolkien makes the specific point that an eala could become bound to its hroa by habitual indulgence in such activities (he specifies eating and begetting offspring), and it seems unreasonable to presume that these corrupted Maiar (who were said to be corrupted by dark gifts, if I remember correctly) would have abstained more assiduously than their masters. |
|
01-25-2007, 09:52 PM | #330 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
01-26-2007, 01:47 AM | #331 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
|
What I found interesting, and what doesn't appear to have been picked up on (although admittedly I couldn't bear to read the whole thread) was the quote "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished".
The key point here is the difference between "fell" and "plunged". What we have is a shadow like wings, which seems to be detachable from the main body of the Balrog. Remember, here the Balrog is only beginning to fall forward, whereas the shadow is already well down into the depths. So I voted "no". Wings, definitely not. Jetpacks, now that's a "maybe"... |
04-10-2007, 06:43 PM | #332 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard.
Posts: 595
|
Tolkien is a writer, and a very good writer, too. He started with
Quote:
Also, if I am not mistaken, the chasm which Gandalf and the Balrog fell into was HUGE. If the Balrog had wings he would have flown up there, instead of falling. If you argue that the chasm wasn't large enough, then when Gandalf was killing him on top of the mountain, why didn't he see he was loosing and fly away? You could say that he had wings, but couldn't fly, but no writer puts wings on a creature just for looks, and then forget to say that he has wings just for looks. We should look at what Tolkien wrote, not what we think he meant. If we do, Balrogs don't have wings. --Fin-- |
|
04-11-2007, 12:31 AM | #333 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
"What a day for a daydream..."
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
|
04-11-2007, 02:20 PM | #334 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard.
Posts: 595
|
Okay, so that is a possibility(sp). But what do you say to my other arguements?
|
04-11-2007, 11:55 PM | #335 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
|
04-16-2007, 03:35 PM | #336 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard.
Posts: 595
|
Quote:
--Fin-- |
|
04-16-2007, 04:17 PM | #337 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Quote:
Hence, Balrogs have fully functioning, albeit rather shadowy and unwieldy, wings.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
|
04-16-2007, 04:19 PM | #338 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
04-16-2007, 04:32 PM | #339 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Quote:
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
|
04-16-2007, 04:34 PM | #340 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
Quote:
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
|
04-16-2007, 05:01 PM | #341 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Oh the shame of it ...
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
04-16-2007, 06:24 PM | #342 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
|
Did Paul McCartney have Wings
The evidence for Balrogs having Wings is rather Shady.
__________________
[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
04-17-2007, 09:06 AM | #343 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard.
Posts: 595
|
Lol. I will admit that Balrogs do look better with wings, but I seriously think they didn't have any. But really, what sensible auther would do what people think Tolkien must have done to have winged Balrogs?
This is kind of off the subject, but I can't think of where else to post it, when Gandalf broke his staff on the bridge, did he fight the rest of his battle with out using any more of his power/magic? And when he overcame the Balrog by breaking his sword, was the Balrog also bereft of his power, and did they fight the rest of the battle on merely fighting abilities? Just wondering. --Fin-- |
04-17-2007, 11:36 AM | #344 | ||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
Gandalf had his staff and Glamdring. The Balrog had a sword and a whip. Gandalf's staff is broken, and The Balrog's sword is broken...of course leaving with Gandalf to fight with his sword and the Balrog to fight with his whip. (And as a side note, it is extremely hard to fight with a whip - up close- so you can kind of picture how tough a foe the Balrog was). Anyway here's Gandalf's description of the 'battle' that took place: Quote:
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
||
04-17-2007, 08:34 PM | #345 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 111
|
Apologies if this is a naive or ill-informed question... but is anyone in a position to ask Christopher Tolkien (or an authority in the Tolkien Society) to settle the dispute? I would be willing to take CT's informed opinion as law...
__________________
www.scottchristiancarr.com They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. |
04-17-2007, 10:10 PM | #346 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
|
|
04-17-2007, 10:16 PM | #347 |
Laconic Loreman
|
Well, Sardy, from my view there is no dispute...and the only reason there is 'dispute' is because some like to base their visualization of a Balrog off of D&D and therefor are forever manipulated into believing Balrogs actually did have wings. (:::cough:::SPM:::cough:::: )
__________________
Fenris Penguin
Last edited by Boromir88; 04-17-2007 at 11:47 PM. |
04-17-2007, 11:14 PM | #348 | |
Beloved Shadow
|
Quote:
__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. |
|
04-18-2007, 02:59 AM | #349 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Quote:
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
|
04-18-2007, 06:58 PM | #350 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Look, I'm over there!
Posts: 496
|
I say yes, but they cant fly with them *nods* that's my theory ^_^ I have no evidence to back up my claims tho
|
04-18-2007, 07:49 PM | #351 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard.
Posts: 595
|
Quote:
|
|
04-18-2007, 10:57 PM | #352 | ||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
But seriously, most artists will draw pictures that get people captivated, interested, and 'wowed' even if it means neglecting 'accuracy.' As we all know gigantic horned demons with enormous wings is far more appealing than a man-sized opponent that could manipulate fire and shadow. I mean we just have to watch the movies to see what people think 'looks' better. Quote:
One of the 'pro-wingers' arguments is well there are animals with wings but can't fly (penguins, emus...and etc). That's true, but the wings of these animals still serve a purpose to them. Balrogs being Maiar chose their own form (as Sauron did)...if they did choose a form with wings...what would be the purpose if not for flight? Therefor, it wouldn't make any sense as to why a Balrog would choose a form with wings yet were unable to fly. As there would be no purpose for the wings so why would they assume a form with wings? Also, what has gone unresponded to is the size of the 'wings' (if they were literal wings). Durin's Bane was approximately 6 feet tall...The area where Gandalf confronts the Balrog is referred to as a 'chasm,' a chasm by definition is twice as wide as it is long. The Bridge spanned 50 feet, so this would mean the width of the chasm was at least 100 feet. If they were literal wings, than you must also take this literally: and its wings were spread from wall to wall (The Bridge of Khazad-dum). This would mean that an approximately 6 foot Balrog would have a 100 foot wingspan. Why would that make any sort of sense? Finally, take into consideration the Balrog's agility and it's ability to get through all the passage ways and tunnels of Moria. How can a creature with gigantic wings when spread were literally from 'wall to wall' (in a chasm) be able to manuevre (and manuevre to the ability that it does) through the mines?
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
||
04-18-2007, 11:22 PM | #353 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Tottering about in the Wild
Posts: 130
|
Quote:
Or maybe propellers.
__________________
Not all those who wander are lost . . . because some of us know how to read a map. |
|
04-19-2007, 02:36 AM | #354 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
I think it's clear that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures(Underhill's thing with Gimli thinking the flying creature was a Balrog and Frodo stating otherwise).
That's all, and for the record I didn't vote. |
04-19-2007, 05:09 AM | #355 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
Because we all know that Balrogs gave the impression of winged creatures. The point is, if it was mere impression, or real wings...
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
|
04-19-2007, 06:28 AM | #356 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Look, I'm over there!
Posts: 496
|
Well, ok, valid point about Tolkien not creating something with wings that can't fly.
Maybe they could originally fly, but over time they lost the use of their wings. I mean from their age, not through de-evolution. I mean, that Balrog that Gandalf blocked in Moria must have been ancient. I always imagine Balrogs to have wings like bats, so perhaps when a Balrog gets old the membranes start to get brittle and break so they can't fly any more. Either that, or all that fire eventually burns them away, lol. Though, were they fiery in the book? Its been so long since I've read it ^^; Quote:
Hmm, perhaps Balrog's don't actually have wings, but perhaps something on their backs that look very much like wings. Possibly some kind of defence from attack? I mean, some Butterflys' wings have false eyes on them for their predators will attack their wings and not their body. Perhaps Balrogs "wings" were not meant for flying but as a distraction for an attacker? An intelligent attacker would perhaps try to disable wings to stop the target from flying off. |
|
04-19-2007, 06:51 AM | #357 | ||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
||||
04-19-2007, 07:55 AM | #358 |
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States.
Posts: 5,076
|
Boromir...I am utterly confused. Didn't you vote that Balrog's do have wings? And yet you seem to speak for those of us who think they don't... It it's an attempt at sarcasm, it's not working.
-- Folwren
__________________
A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis |
04-19-2007, 08:07 AM | #359 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Quote:
Whether Tolkien intended his Balrogs to be winged remains a moot point, but I would hazard a guess that many pro-wingers (and certainly myself) formed an impression of a winged Balrog on first reading the relevant passage and are now either disinclined or unable to reject it, regardless of the logic of the argument to the contrary. In my own case, my original impression was reinforced over time by artistic portrayals of the Balrog.
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
|
04-19-2007, 08:12 AM | #360 |
Messenger of Hope
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States.
Posts: 5,076
|
Hm. I dunno, SPM. When I first read the book, I know I'd seen a painting by John Howe of the Balrog, and his Balrog had wings, I believe. But, when I read the book, I don't remembering actually thinking they had wings. It just seemed to me like some huge shadow and flame all mixed together.....no body, really, no wings...
-- Folwren
__________________
A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis |
|
|