Immortality

[novbarwen greenleaf]

uh, an elf-woman loses her her immortality if she marries a mortal man. what if an elf-man marries a mortal woman, would he lose his immortality too?

[Kettle of fish]

They don't lose their immortality when they marry. But they can choose to.
(This is for both)

[novbarwen greenleaf]

thanx, but why did Arwen chose to give up her immortality to be with Aragorn? [I could find no answer to that]

[Bill Ferny]

I thought that through marriage elves did in fact loose their immortality. For example, Luthien Tinuviel lost her immortality when she wedded Beren the son of Barahir. I'm not sure about Idril when she got hitched with Tuor. (I'm too lazy to look it up.) I'm pretty sure that marriage and love for Tolkien was much more than just an outward pledge, but a sacramental reality that changes one's very nature.

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Not any Elf can give up their immortality... only Elves that have a mortal relative (mother, father, grandmother, grandfather) can choose to become mortal.
Arwen could give up hers because her father, Elrond, is half-Elven (because of, I think, his mother being mortal...I don't remember exactly, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong)... his brother chose mortality many years prior.
She gave hers up because she wanted to be with Aragorn. She loved him and did not want to live on after he had passed.

[Elenna]

I would assume that if an elven guy had a mortal ancestor, he too could choose to give up his immortality.

I actually tried to write a story about that, but I just couldn't picture it.

[Raefindel]

The story of the Death of Aragorn and Arwen is told in Return of the King Appendix A (around page 389). It's very sad.

[*Varda*]

Well, Tuor was allowed to become immortal and sail to Aman. Secondly, Luthien had no mortal relatives.

I think it was mainly that they loved them so much, they just couldn't bear to live on after they had died. I mean, I think they felt there wasn't really much left for them after their husbands died, and since elves died of grief that probably happened.

Hope I made some sense. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Varda Elentari

[Arwen Imladris]

I think that with Arwen, she thought that all of the ships that could take her would be gone by the time Aragorn died. If she was immortal she would have to stay in ME the whole time.

Also From Apendix A, after Arwen and Aragorn have been together for a long time, Aragorn is about to die and gives Arwen one last chance to turn back to her elves:

Aragorn: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the west the memory of our days....
Arwen: Nay lord, that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men...

Hope that helps

[Elrian]

With Arwen, she would remain immortal if she had left with her father, since she remained she became mortal, that was the choice of Elronds children.

[Bill Ferny]

Thanks for the info on Tuor, Varda!

Its apparent that marriage, or plighting one's troth, was more than just an "OK lets live together" kind of thing. Tolkien's notion of marriage was that there isn't two lives under one roof, but that there was one life lived by two people. One could not be immortal without the other. In Arwen's and Elessar's case, Elessar had to be king, so going to the havens was not a choice for him.

An aside: Elros and Elrond were the sons of Earendil and Elwing. Earendil had an elven mother, Idril, and a human father Tuor. Elwing had an elven mother, Luthien, and a human father Beren. So Elros and Elrond aren't half elf in that they had an elf parent and a human parent. Rather, their parents were half-elves in that sort of way.

[Voralphion]

Elwing had an elven mother, Luthien and a human father, Beren.

This is incorrect. Elwing was in fact the daughter of Dior, the son of Luthien and Beren. Elwing had a half elven father, Dior, and a full elven mother, (sorry I can't remember her name).
Also, Luthien only gave up her immortality so that Beren could return from the dead. She made this deal with the Valar only after she had already died from grief at the losing of Beren. She was granted that wish only because the song that she sang in the Halls of Mandos was so sad that even Mandos took pity on her.

[Bill Ferny]

Ooops. Thanks for the correction. Nimloth (daughter of Galathil, who was the brother of Celeborn) was wedded to Dior.

[novbarwen greenleaf]

ok, so if u guys are immortal, would u give up your immortality to be with someone you love. as for me, im not so sure of that idea cuz i would love to live 4eva.. but it depends on the situations.

[Bill Ferny]

novbarwen,

If I had the choice between living forever instead of having spent these last seven years with my wife, I would choose the last seven years, even if I had to die tonight.

[Arathiriel]

ok, so if u guys are immortal, would u give up your immortality to be with someone you love. as for me, im not so sure of that idea cuz i would love to live 4eva.. but it depends on the situations.

I don't know...

If I were in Arwen's situation I think I would choose to give up my immortality to be with the one I loved...

I mean what good does it do living forever mourning for the one you've lost to death?

[novbarwen greenleaf]

aww, so you prefer to die than living forever mourning for the death of your loved ones. well, maybe I should do the same...

[Legolas]

Elves cannot give up their immortality.

It is simply not their choice. There are only three instances of Eldar (elf) and Edain (man) being wed.

This statement has its problems, in that we're only entirely certain that Luthien/Beren and Tuor/Idril fit.

1) Luthien was granted that choice because of what she and Beren accomplished with the Silmaril and all. A very special case. In this case, Luthien lost her immortality.

2) Tuor was granted the privelege of marrying Turgon's daugher, Idril. He was given the oppurtunity because of his interaction with Ulmo and what he accomplished. In this case, Tuor was granted immortality, and Idril remained as she was. Eru granted Tuor immortality...not Manwe, in that immortality wasn't his to give to men.

3?) Arwen and Aragorn obviously, though Arwen was half-elven. Elrond's parents had both elvish and human blood - Earendil with human blood from Tuor, Elwing with human blood from Beren.

From Appendix A of Return of the King:

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed; to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle Earth.

Thus, if Arwen's marraige was considered a marraige of Eldar/Edain, then it is possible that there were two more...Elladan and Elrohir, if they wed two human women.

Also, if Arwen's marraige is considered a marraige of Eldar/Edain, then the marraige of Dior and Nimrodel is in question because while Nimrodel was of the Eldar, Dior (son of Luthien and Beren) was half-elven.

There is an odd, fourth marraige where Mithrellas, an elf maid of Nimrodel, bore Imrazor the Numenorean a son, Galador (the Princes of Dol Amroth came from this child), and a daughter, Gilmith. This marraige is not included in the "three" because, she is a Silvan elf, i.e. not counted among the Eldar because she turned away from the movement west. We don't know if she died or not because " she slipped away by night and he[Imrazor] saw her no more" ("The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" - "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn", Unfinished Tales).