Shadow of the West Discussion Thread

[Bêthberry]

Just another note to your good list, Fordim, about upcoming events. Bekah has also requested a meeting with Zamara, the High Priestess, in the afternoon. She invited Tarkan as well, but he declined. "He" should feel free, however, to show up if "he" decides to change his mind. Neither Aman nor Nova need think that I have to start this meeting. The same goes for the meeting with Bekah and the Royal Children. Either Firefoot or Aylwen can start the meeting off.

Wonderful post, Fordim about the ring and very good catch there, Aman. I won't say a word about the nefarious alliance which Firefoot and Kransha are developing.

[Bêthberry]

Just a quick acknowledgement that I snuck in an edit to my post of last night, which everyone should be aware of.

I have added a small scene of Bekah with Nuru's and Immy's characters. I have taken the liberty *coughcough* of naming Lord Korak's mother and integrating the family slightly more with palace affairs. This, I hope, will set up some more scenes for them. Bekah too! I don't want her holed up in the palace all day.

[Firefoot]

I went ahead and brought Siamak to Bekah's apartments. Now Gjeelea just needs to show up.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Gjeelea has joined the queen and prince. Sorry that it was such a quick post - I'm off to do a lot of Christmas shopping and I didn't want to hold you guys up for the rest of the night.

Great posts everyone, if I may say so...

-Aylwen

[Kransha]

Hullo, again.

Firstly, I want to make an apology to everyone about the length of my post, which may impede the reading of it. I tried to delete unnecessary stuff, but couldn't do much with it without making it seem very disjointed. If you'll all accept that apologye, especially Fordim and Bb, then I'll proceed with a few questions.

Fordim: Your initial post said that Pashtia was small, but it does still have numerous little towns, I hope. I've invented one, called Durvelt, if you don't mind. Also, I made the assumption that there are nomadic tribes that roam the Great Desert, lesser peoples that prey off merchants and the like. Since you said we could run with such idea, I did.

[Novnarwen]

Hi everyone!

First.. I really enjoy reading everyone's posts! Really awesome!

Second ... I must apologise for my 'absence'. I'm aware that I haven't posted for almost 2 weeks. I have been quite busy, and there has been less time for computer than usual. The next weeks or so won't be any better, which brings me to my ‘issue’.

I don't mean to complain, but I ask you to understand that it's quite difficult for me to post as frequent as I would like to, especially since I'm not allowed to put up saves. When I'm first on the Internet, I have to read through all the new posts, (which are all fantastic) but by then, my time is nearly up. For me, a save now and then would really help, because I could come back to it the next day after having been able to think it through for a day, which would make it easier for me to write when I have little time to my disposal. I would also not have to spend all my time reading 5-6 posts that were posted when I was sleep …

When I'm not allowed to put up saves, I'm caught in this evil circle (Okay, not at all evil.. but you understand my point, or so I hope) where I have to read first and then after I have done that, my time is up again. You see, I seldom have time for both.. I know that you've said that flashbacks and such could work to catch up with earlier events that my character possibly has missed, but I can't do that every time.

I can't possibly see how a save can hurt, especially not at this point. I know you're afraid of losing the 'flow' (Is that it? ) in the game, but currently Tarkan is too busy thinking of himself and being with Pelin that it would not, as I see it, affect other people's posting.

Cheers,
Nova

PS! Just to make it clear .... I have posted now..

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Kransha

Fordim: Your initial post said that Pashtia was small, but it does still have numerous little towns, I hope. I've invented one, called Durvelt, if you don't mind. Also, I made the assumption that there are nomadic tribes that roam the Great Desert, lesser peoples that prey off merchants and the like. Since you said we could run with such idea, I did.

Very nicely done Kransha! An intriguing new plot twist, a better view of Kanak beyond the Palace walls, and some more details about Pastia. Wonderful!

Nova: I can truly sympathise -- this game is a bit demanding, but so rewarding! I would like to at least try to stand by the No Save Rule (which I admit, I have chafed against myself from time to time!); it works very well in the Inns, so I think it can work here.

That having been said, I am more than amenable to allowing people to send posts to me for inclusion 'earlier' in the thread. I can paste them into the end of one of my posts, or someone else can do that -- I even think it's possible to insert whole new posts(?).

The reason I wanted to keep saves out of here is not so much to do with "flow" as it has to do with making writing posts after the Save rather difficult. If I want to write a scene in which the King bumps into Tarkan, but I know that there's a Tarkan save above mine, I have a hard time knowing what to write. What if you are preparing a post in which Tarkan goes swimming or something?

But Everyone -- what is our position on Saves to be? If there is a general consensus that we should reinstate the save, then we can do that (although I will be brutal in policing the 24 hour rule for filling them, and you will be expected to give a brief description of what the post will be about). My primary concern here is that I don't want any one writer to feel as though she or he is at some kind of disadvantage, or not able fully to enjoy this game. So let me know what you're thinking!

[Bêthberry]

posted by Fordim
That having been said, I am more than amenable to allowing people to send posts to me for inclusion 'earlier' in the thread. I can paste them into the end of one of my posts, or someone else can do that -- I even think it's possible to insert whole new posts(?).

I asked this of Mithadan once, when we were using the old UBB software and he said not even Admins could create or insert 'back' posts like that. I doubt this new software would allow it, as we now have numbered posts. And, anyway, I'm not sure that such an answer is really much different from the main issue with saves. It would amount to including a back post which is for most purposes irrelevant to the posts which come after it. It would not reflect interactive gaming, but rather would be 'writing backwards' rather than forwards. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it for people, but I would caution against using it too heavily.

I would like to chime in with Fordim on the need to avoid SAVES in this game particularly. Let's check the guidelines for Rohan games in The Golden Hall:

Because gamers have shown in The Shire that they understand the basics of plot and game structure, Rohan gamers can be trusted to understand how to game using intelligent interaction and spontaneity, developing posts from previous posts rather than relying on extensive pre-planning. This does not mean that Rohan games revert to wacky, nonesensical freestyle games but that they allow gamers more creativity in developing the game as it goes along. Rohan games do not need to have a set system of posting order but rely more on interactive reactions among all gamers.

This game lives and breathes on the interaction of its characters. Even if a character is "off doing his own thing", he could well be providing something for another character to spin off from. Just take a look at the first three paragraphs of Kransha's latest post. It spells trouble for Firefoot's character even though those paragraphs are pure reminiscence.

I too can sympathise with Nova's predicament, as I myself have thought a save would come in handy. But let's remember again the Rohan guidelines:

Post at a minimum two times weekly for a major character, once weekly for a minor character, or as required for a cameo character, and read both the game and discussion threads at least every two days in order to keep informed of the game's events. (Posting speed can be discussed among gamers before a game starts and a consensus on posting speed can be reached. However, once this decision is reached, gamers are expected to follow it conscientiously. Games which don't move are not fun to read or play in.)

Notify the game founder on the discussion thread of any absences as far in advance as possible. Gamers who are absent longer than two weeks without any notification before the absence begins will have their character/s assumed by the Game Founder. Such characters can be written out of the game or handled at the Game Founder's discretion.

This is a very busy time of year for everyone, but please, if you cannot keep up the pace, let Fordim know. Give him or another gamer some ideas about how they can carry your character for you, even just temporarily.

On the other hand, I can also sympathise with Nova's point that there is a lot of reading to do in this tremendous game. Part of that comes from our habit of writing long posts. But let me remind everyone of what the expectations are. Again, this is from The Golden Hall.

Because Rohan gamers are confident writers, their posts reflect an awareness of the readers' need for detail and exposition to help them imagine the game's situation and of pacing, of balancing all details into a smooth, coherent unity. Usually, Rohan posts are two to four paragraphs long unless there is a clear benefit in terms of the story for a shorter post. Gamers may be required to make a case for a short post on the discussion thread. Gamers should also remember that exceptionally long posts can tax readers unless they make significant use of the details and formation to forward either plot or character.

That's right. Two to four paragraphs. That should represent one topic or idea. This is a particularly good thing to remember as we are getting into some interesting scenes where characters are discussing ideas in depth. There is nothing wrong with having your character set out a particular approach or idea, and then leaving the post at that, expecting the Game Player of the other character to pick up the thread of the conversation. (This is, in fact, how I envision the morning meeting between Bekah and the two Royal Children. I'm not sure what Firefoot and Aylwen think of this; I have to see their reactions to my next post. )

Posts which contain more than one topic run the risk of being exceptionally long, even if they are finely written and contain some brilliant set up of subplots. Yes, Kransha, you know I am talking about your post, even with your apology here. You could easily have cut that into four posts, spaced out between other Game Player's posts. Please, in future, don't restrict your hyperdrive imagination, but pace it better in the interests of other gamers.

Now, don't take this as meaning I expect to see posts of only two to four paragraphs. I'm sure you all know just how big a pinch of salt to take with this. And I'm sure everyone realises I would have handled this in PM had the topic of length not already been brought up on the DT.

I hope this provides some ideas and suggestions for how we can still avoid saves, as Fordim wishes while accomodating the needs of gamers who need more time to keep up.

Does this make sense?