Melkor's Choice - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kuruharan · 01-25-2002, 10:46 PM

This question was sort of started under another topic, but I thought that it deserved its own thread and I've never seen this topic discussed anywhere before so...
Did Melkor have freedom of choice and consciously decide to revolt during the Great Music, or was he (for lack of a better word) predestined to fall and be Iluvatar's "instrument in devising things more wonderful?"
Ideas, opinions?

obloquy · 01-26-2002, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

-Ainulindale

I guess that's that.

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

bryniana · 01-26-2002, 03:20 AM

great topic (especially since I'm reading that currently). I can read two meenings in that passage. One that Iluvatar has predestined everything so no matter what you do it's his and not yours. The other is that
Melkor did have freedom of choice and imagination--but once the songs were sung Iluvatar had the choice of wether or not to include them into the tapestry. There is also the idea that because Iluvatar created Melkor anything that Melkor sang would be coming indirectly from Iluvatar.

oh boy, i thought i was done with theology a long time ago...

Carannillion · 01-26-2002, 10:08 AM

I think Melkor had a free choice, and also that everything sung by the Ainur - even by Melkor - would be included in Ilúvatar's grand design. It's just that Ilúvatar, being the grand-ol-man of gods, is so beyond us in power and depth of mind that he is able to turn Melkor's dischords into 'good' whether Melkor likes it or not.

Eldar14 · 01-26-2002, 11:30 AM

My interpretation is that everything all the Ainur sang were at least partially influenced by Ilu, but that they added to it, in different levels. So Melkor took Ilu's idea and twisted it in an attempt to make it evil, but Ilu has the power to take Melkor's twisted and use it to make his creation more beautiful than he could have done on his own.

Kuruharan · 01-26-2002, 05:36 PM

When I first asked this question I thought that I had an opinion, but when I was thumbing through the Ainulindale and came to the passage that Obloquy aptly quoted, I changed my mind. Now I'm not sure either way, but here's an interpretation that might or might not float. I know it starts out a bit strange, but please bear with me...
Looking at the example of another Vala who went against the will of Eru, Aule in his making of the Dwarves, Iluvatar said some things that seem to maybe apply to the free will question. "Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the world, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein..."
Now granted what Aule had done was not out of a desire to dominate but out of a desire to have students to teach he still chose to go beyond what Eru intended.
It was the "taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein" line that caught my eye. It gave me the idea that the Valar had free will to do what they pleased, and while their deeds might be against the will of Eru, they could be hallowed and given life because greater glory could be brought to Ea through them.
Now back to the point. I don't think that Melkor's rebellion was part of the original plan, but since he chose to exercise his free will and revolt his ideas, like Aule's, were taken into the greater theme because they would ultimately bring greater glory to the whole.
I hope that all makes sense. I realize that I might be completely off base here.
Suggestions, complaints, scathing criticisms?

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Carannillion · 01-27-2002, 05:21 PM

Eldar14, I don't think Melkor did what he did to do evil; he simply wanted to dominate, to have power. What happens is that his desire for power makes him go against Ilúvatar, thus, becoming evil. He cannot create things himself, only Ilúvatar can, so he has to take those things already created and make them his. Remember that in the beginning of his 'kingdom' in ME, many Maiar were drawn to him, because of the splendour of his realm. BUT, as Kuruharan says in the post below yours, his doings will stil be taken into the greater theme, because they will bring greater glory in the end.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Carannillion ]

Eol · 01-28-2002, 07:10 PM

I think the term you wish to use is preordained. Predestined indicated that it *will* happen... preordained indicates that this is what may happened, but it is up to you.

Melkor had a choice, hence he did have angecy and went against the music.

Kuruharan · 01-28-2002, 10:16 PM

Well, that was sort of what I was asking. Whether or not Melkor's fall 'will' happen and that he had no choice about it. But, I tend to agree with you and that he did have a choice and made the wrong one.

Eowyn of Ithilien · 01-29-2002, 06:32 AM

choice...what exactly is that????
if Iluvatar is truly all-knowing and all-powerful he will have foreseen both possibilites (Melkor evil/not) and planned ahead for them...or perhaps simply have known which would happen, maybe even have pushed things that way
Are we all simply pawns in a game whose end has been foretold?

Kuruharan · 01-29-2002, 02:38 PM

Quote:

If Iluvatar is truely all-knowing and all-powerful he will have foreseen both possibilities (Melkor evil/not) and planned ahead for them

I completely agree that Iluvatar knew beforehand what Melkor would do.
But just because Eru knew does not necessarily mean that was what he had decided would happen. I don't really see a contradiction having an all powerful creator letting his created beings make their own choices, even though the creator knew in advance what those choices would be. The created being still had that freedom to choose.
I guess my point is that there may be a difference between Iluvatar knowing something in advance and him deciding that thing himself.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

01-25-2002, 10:46 PM	#1
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	Melkor's Choice This question was sort of started under another topic, but I thought that it deserved its own thread and I've never seen this topic discussed anywhere before so... Did Melkor have freedom of choice and consciously decide to revolt during the Great Music, or was he (for lack of a better word) predestined to fall and be Iluvatar's "instrument in devising things more wonderful?" Ideas, opinions? __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

01-26-2002, 10:08 AM	#4
Carannillion Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mici Firya Posts: 135	I think Melkor had a free choice, and also that everything sung by the Ainur - even by Melkor - would be included in Ilúvatar's grand design. It's just that Ilúvatar, being the grand-ol-man of gods, is so beyond us in power and depth of mind that he is able to turn Melkor's dischords into 'good' whether Melkor likes it or not. __________________ A cry for the people, but there's noone there to hear...

01-26-2002, 11:30 AM	#5
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	My interpretation is that everything all the Ainur sang were at least partially influenced by Ilu, but that they added to it, in different levels. So Melkor took Ilu's idea and twisted it in an attempt to make it evil, but Ilu has the power to take Melkor's twisted and use it to make his creation more beautiful than he could have done on his own. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

01-26-2002, 05:36 PM	#6
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	When I first asked this question I thought that I had an opinion, but when I was thumbing through the Ainulindale and came to the passage that Obloquy aptly quoted, I changed my mind. Now I'm not sure either way, but here's an interpretation that might or might not float. I know it starts out a bit strange, but please bear with me... Looking at the example of another Vala who went against the will of Eru, Aule in his making of the Dwarves, Iluvatar said some things that seem to maybe apply to the free will question. "Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the world, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein..." Now granted what Aule had done was not out of a desire to dominate but out of a desire to have students to teach he still chose to go beyond what Eru intended. It was the "taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein" line that caught my eye. It gave me the idea that the Valar had free will to do what they pleased, and while their deeds might be against the will of Eru, they could be hallowed and given life because greater glory could be brought to Ea through them. Now back to the point. I don't think that Melkor's rebellion was part of the original plan, but since he chose to exercise his free will and revolt his ideas, like Aule's, were taken into the greater theme because they would ultimately bring greater glory to the whole. I hope that all makes sense. I realize that I might be completely off base here. Suggestions, complaints, scathing criticisms? [ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

01-27-2002, 05:21 PM	#7
Carannillion Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mici Firya Posts: 135	Eldar14, I don't think Melkor did what he did to do evil; he simply wanted to dominate, to have power. What happens is that his desire for power makes him go against Ilúvatar, thus, becoming evil. He cannot create things himself, only Ilúvatar can, so he has to take those things already created and make them his. Remember that in the beginning of his 'kingdom' in ME, many Maiar were drawn to him, because of the splendour of his realm. BUT, as Kuruharan says in the post below yours, his doings will stil be taken into the greater theme, because they will bring greater glory in the end. [ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Carannillion ] __________________ A cry for the people, but there's noone there to hear...

01-26-2002, 03:20 AM	#3
bryniana Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 11	great topic (especially since I'm reading that currently). I can read two meenings in that passage. One that Iluvatar has predestined everything so no matter what you do it's his and not yours. The other is that Melkor did have freedom of choice and imagination--but once the songs were sung Iluvatar had the choice of wether or not to include them into the tapestry. There is also the idea that because Iluvatar created Melkor anything that Melkor sang would be coming indirectly from Iluvatar. oh boy, i thought i was done with theology a long time ago...

01-28-2002, 07:10 PM	#8
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	I think the term you wish to use is preordained. Predestined indicated that it will happen... preordained indicates that this is what may happened, but it is up to you. Melkor had a choice, hence he did have angecy and went against the music. __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

01-28-2002, 10:16 PM	#9
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	Well, that was sort of what I was asking. Whether or not Melkor's fall 'will' happen and that he had no choice about it. But, I tend to agree with you and that he did have a choice and made the wrong one. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

01-29-2002, 06:32 AM	#10
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	choice...what exactly is that???? if Iluvatar is truly all-knowing and all-powerful he will have foreseen both possibilites (Melkor evil/not) and planned ahead for them...or perhaps simply have known which would happen, maybe even have pushed things that way Are we all simply pawns in a game whose end has been foretold? __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.