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Old 03-01-2004, 08:39 PM   #1
Kransha
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Here's a curious...ummm...flaw, relating to the building of Lugburz.

In The Tale of Years, Second Age, it is stated:
Quote:
-1000 Sauron ... chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dur.

-1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dur. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
Now, that's fine, except for one thing.
In FotR, Elrond states very clearly and firmly:
Quote:
"The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring."
Ok, something's wrong here. The One was forged in 1600 of the Second Age. How could Sauron have been building Barad-dur for 600 years without any foundation. So, he built the whole tower like a log on the ground, then put up the foundation instantly with the ring forging in 1600 and put up the Dark Tower over it like some crazy giant architect? That could be some metaphor for ring power, but Elrond is being awfully specific.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:18 AM   #2
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Pipe Re: The Foundations of Barad-dûr

How could a ring be a literal foundation of anything, much less a mountain of iron, as Barad-dûr is described? It has to be metaphorical.

Quote:
"The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring."
"they" is ambigious; it could refer to the Dark Tower or the foundations. The entries from the Tale of Years that you quoted points to the latter. He built the actual tower first, with an actual foundation, but it had no foundation for domination and terror until the completion of the One. Didn't you notice that Sauron did not attack his enemies in the Second Age before the forging of the Master Ring?
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Old 03-02-2004, 04:40 AM   #3
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Tolkien

Maybe Elrond thought at that time the foundations were indeed made with the power of the One Ring, but that they later found out that this was not exactly the case. It's a possibility they later found out Sauron already around the year 1000 SA began building Barad-dûr, hence the reference in the Tale of Years.

I guess Sauron began building his tower and later reinforced the fundations with the power of the Ring.

Another possibility is, that Sauron was at the same moment studying the arts of ring-making whilst building Barad-dûr and already used something of the lore he learned in the creation of its foundations.

A last thought occurred to me while writing all this: as the power of the Ring was in essence Sauron's power concentrated in an object, maybe we should view also Elrond's reference thus: Sauron's concentrated power in an object. As Elrond both could feel the power of the Ring and the power in Barad-dûr's foundations, I think they were the same to him: Sauron's concentrated evil power.
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Old 03-05-2004, 01:01 AM   #4
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Eye Re: Sacrifice

[Kronos said,]

At exactly what point does it suddenly become “valid” to intercede. Exactly how many people of Middle Earth can die fighting an un-defeatable foe before the Gods decide to intervene?

It's not a matter of quantity: the peoples of Middle-earth must show that they would stand and resist, and offer whatever they can to stop the seemingly unstoppable Shadow, no matter what the costs. Only then could the higher powers intervene.

And yes, if I had children, if they will be the cost of freedom, so be it. It is way better than sitting on my hands and doing nothing, dying all the same.

There's a saying for this, and it goes like this:

Without God, man cannot.
Without man, God will not.


Or think of it this way: The Eagles may be pretty tough, but on their own, without support, flying into the heart of Sauron's realm, they could have done nothing more than die spectacularly.

[Kronos said,]

Wanting a peaceful world is not “weakness”.
Wanting not to have to die for it is not “weakness”.

At any cost? Wow! That is scary!

Why? Think of this: Gandalf wants a peaceful world. What if he had then taken the Ring for himself? He could surely have done that. But would he stop there? No. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, as was said. The power would go to his head, and he would have done anything he wanted.

It's like having a world with many robots and one controller.

I think it would be better to die for freedom than live without it.
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Old 03-05-2004, 08:38 AM   #5
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Er, people, I don't know whether this had come up before, (this is becoming a habit of mine) but I think Prof T made another Glitch with the name of the Mines of Moria.

Moria is supposed to mean 'Black Pit' or 'Dark Chasm' in Quenya.
The name the Dwarves had for the Mines of Moria before the Balrog woke up is Khazad-dum: meaning something like 'Halls of the Dwarves' in their language.

Why is it that Celebrimbor of Hollin drew the Sindarin Runes on the Door of Moria with the name of 'Moria'?

Quote:
"'The words are in the elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days,' answered Gandalf. 'But they do not say anything of importance to us. They say only: The doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak friend, and enter. And underneath small and faint is written: I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs."
Did Prof T, intentionally wrote this with the name of 'Moria' already in his thoughts? Obviously he must have thought that Moria is a putrid black pit anyway, and nobody would notice...

Gimli: It was not the fault of the Dwarves that the friendship waned.
Legolas: I have not heard it was the fault of the Elves.
Prof T: No comments
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Old 03-14-2004, 09:33 AM   #6
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Hand of an Istari?

Hiya fellows! I don't know whether this count as a mistake!

Quote:
'Don't try!' said the old hobbit, turning around and slapping him on the back. 'Ow!' he cried. 'You are too hard now to slap!'
Remember Bilbo giving Frodo a friendly slap after presenting him the Mithril waistcoat? Well, the waistcoat is too hard to slap, but soft enough not to restrict motion. But that is not all! Remeber Bilbo wearing that coat in the original Battle of the Five Armies?

Quote:
'Well done! Mr Baggins!' he said, clapping Bilbo on the back. 'There is always more about you than anyone expects!' It was Gandalf.
Gandalf sure had a hand that is harder than Mithril... or do all Istaril have them?
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Old 03-14-2004, 01:37 PM   #7
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I would have to assume it is a general pat on the back, even with the toughest armour you would be moved forward slightly by a pat on the back... or Maybe i am wrong, as i have never worn chain male of any sorts let alone mithril i cannot say from experience.
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Old 11-09-2005, 08:47 PM   #8
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Narya Eagles, Evil, and Nonsense............

As for the Eagles; they are the minions of Manwe, and are not subject to the will or fate of any save by his will. The eagles represent the presence of Manwe in Middle-earth, and even thought He is Lord of the Valar, He is also subject to Illuvatar, essentially God. That theme permeates a lot of literature, lore, even religion. The Eagles are there to remind you that even with all things being considered, God's (Illuvatar's) will is still present in the world.

As for absolute evil; I am like you in that respect. Personally I don't believe in absolute evil, but then I did not write the story. Apparently Tolkien did believe in absolute evil or it's representation in this story. Not surprised there when one considers that JRR was in fact a Christian and Christians for the most part do believe in absolute evil incarnated in Satan.
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Old 11-10-2005, 07:26 AM   #9
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Now, Quenya is the language in Aman. Sindarin was unheard-of yet, let alone spoken, during the time period this happened. But Morgoth is obviously Sindarin - Quenya doesn't have the "g" phoneme isolated. So, is it an oversight perhaps?
I believe what Feanor actually said was "Moringotto", the Sindarin form of which is "Morgoth". I can't recall the source for this at the moment - perhaps "Quendi and Eldar".
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