New Tolkien coming! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

zionius · 10-11-2023, 03:04 AM

All my doubts are now resolved, thank you!

zionius · 10-12-2023, 09:34 AM

Another question: How do you determine the full moon was on the night of Mar 7/8 rather than March 8/9 in the final timeline? My understanding is:

Evidences for Mar 7/8: almanac time has the full moon at 12:19 am
Frodo sees a full moon on 7/8.

Evidences for Mar 8/9: S2 and S3 say full moon is on Mar 8/9.
Pinpin sees an almost full moon on 7/8.
Éomer says "Last night the moon was full" (before 2005 revision) for Mar 9.
Mar 10 mustering on the "2nd day after the full moon" before 2005 revision.

If we ignore the textual history and only focus on final version, it seems to me the evidences for the latter are much stronger. One only has to make one change in LR text to make it work, whereas Mar 7/8 date requires four emendations, treating them as shadows of the past.
Per Chronology LR p114, Tolkien first used the full moon time for Feb 1 1942 (at 9:12 am) and then switched to Mar 3 1942 (at 12:19 am). But I can't find evidence that Tolkien is using the 1942 moon fullness time in the final timeline (I think we can only be certain that 1942 moon fullness dates are used). On the opposite, S3 clearly shows he envisions the moon fullness time at Mar 8 "PM". I can't understand why CT, H&S and you all say otherwise. Have I overlooked anything?

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-13-2023, 08:12 AM

Well, it was a fixed data-point that Frodo observed the full moon setting over the Forbidden Pool, and at least as early as Time-scheme S this was the full moon of February 6 (RW Feb 1). With S2 and the one-month delay this became March 8 (RW March 3). This is a basic "fact" that never changed, throughout all of his permutations.

What did get changed around a lot was Pippin's observation of the same moon, since in the original conception he was already in Minas Tirith. However, it was explicit from the first that this was the full moon, and the same one that Frodo saw. The revised Pippin-on-Shadowfax version required some juggling, but Tolkien got there, and this (second) timeline was what made it into V/i. In the third timeline, as laid out unambiguously in S3 the full moon occurred absolutely on the 8th just after midnight, not on the 9th (by which time Frodo had left Henneth Annun on his way to the Crossroads)

The final or S3 timeline, remember, was developed after the book had been completed in draft. Imagine for a moment the difficulty of Tolkien looking back over a million-word book, written over the course of more than a decade, and without an index much less computer search having to remember all the places that dates or moons were referenced and had to be changed! An impossible task, and he didn't get them all. So therefore we have Aragorn's "three days" across Rohan, for example. He clearly did not go back and revise V/i even though technically he ought to have- for instance "so the night was not yet old" is plainly wrong; there is no question that in the final timeline the incident occurs somewhere between midnight and 5 a.m. not in the evening. And, again, this was the same moon on the same night as Frodo's, an essential conception in every phase.

The relation of the muster of Rohan to the moon was always a mess; do keep in mind that the key passage in "The Voice of Saruman" was written all the way back in 1942!

zionius · 10-13-2023, 08:27 PM

I see, so it is the textual history shows Tolkien had relatively firm idea about one event and would adjust other events to it. Even though the final text might appear to suggest otherwise, it is more reasonable to assume he just ignored to revise them, rather than that he changed the idea he took pains to keep for so long.

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-16-2023, 10:45 AM

I would say, rather, couldn't do it. Tolkien the nitpicking perfectionist would definitely revise, often to a fanatical extent, to make things consistent; but catching every detail in that massive manuscript, from memory, was beyond him (or any mortal). And so there are inevitable slips (like the phase of the moon over Nimrodel, or Shadowfax' speed relative to normal horses).

zionius · 10-18-2023, 07:14 AM

Indeed, thanks for the comprehensive explanation!

10-12-2023, 09:34 AM	#2
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	Another question: How do you determine the full moon was on the night of Mar 7/8 rather than March 8/9 in the final timeline? My understanding is: Evidences for Mar 7/8: almanac time has the full moon at 12:19 am Frodo sees a full moon on 7/8. Evidences for Mar 8/9: S2 and S3 say full moon is on Mar 8/9. Pinpin sees an almost full moon on 7/8. Éomer says "Last night the moon was full" (before 2005 revision) for Mar 9. Mar 10 mustering on the "2nd day after the full moon" before 2005 revision. If we ignore the textual history and only focus on final version, it seems to me the evidences for the latter are much stronger. One only has to make one change in LR text to make it work, whereas Mar 7/8 date requires four emendations, treating them as shadows of the past. Per Chronology LR p114, Tolkien first used the full moon time for Feb 1 1942 (at 9:12 am) and then switched to Mar 3 1942 (at 12:19 am). But I can't find evidence that Tolkien is using the 1942 moon fullness time in the final timeline (I think we can only be certain that 1942 moon fullness dates are used). On the opposite, S3 clearly shows he envisions the moon fullness time at Mar 8 "PM". I can't understand why CT, H&S and you all say otherwise. Have I overlooked anything? Last edited by zionius; 10-12-2023 at 10:26 AM.

10-13-2023, 08:12 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Well, it was a fixed data-point that Frodo observed the full moon setting over the Forbidden Pool, and at least as early as Time-scheme S this was the full moon of February 6 (RW Feb 1). With S2 and the one-month delay this became March 8 (RW March 3). This is a basic "fact" that never changed, throughout all of his permutations. What did get changed around a lot was Pippin's observation of the same moon, since in the original conception he was already in Minas Tirith. However, it was explicit from the first that this was the full moon, and the same one that Frodo saw. The revised Pippin-on-Shadowfax version required some juggling, but Tolkien got there, and this (second) timeline was what made it into V/i. In the third timeline, as laid out unambiguously in S3 the full moon occurred absolutely on the 8th just after midnight, not on the 9th (by which time Frodo had left Henneth Annun on his way to the Crossroads) The final or S3 timeline, remember, was developed after the book had been completed in draft. Imagine for a moment the difficulty of Tolkien looking back over a million-word book, written over the course of more than a decade, and without an index much less computer search having to remember all the places that dates or moons were referenced and had to be changed! An impossible task, and he didn't get them all. So therefore we have Aragorn's "three days" across Rohan, for example. He clearly did not go back and revise V/i even though technically he ought to have- for instance "so the night was not yet old" is plainly wrong; there is no question that in the final timeline the incident occurs somewhere between midnight and 5 a.m. not in the evening. And, again, this was the same moon on the same night as Frodo's, an essential conception in every phase. The relation of the muster of Rohan to the moon was always a mess; do keep in mind that the key passage in "The Voice of Saruman" was written all the way back in 1942! __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-16-2023, 10:45 AM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	I would say, rather, couldn't do it. Tolkien the nitpicking perfectionist would definitely revise, often to a fanatical extent, to make things consistent; but catching every detail in that massive manuscript, from memory, was beyond him (or any mortal). And so there are inevitable slips (like the phase of the moon over Nimrodel, or Shadowfax' speed relative to normal horses). __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

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10-11-2023, 03:04 AM	#1
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	All my doubts are now resolved, thank you!

10-13-2023, 08:27 PM	#4
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	I see, so it is the textual history shows Tolkien had relatively firm idea about one event and would adjust other events to it. Even though the final text might appear to suggest otherwise, it is more reasonable to assume he just ignored to revise them, rather than that he changed the idea he took pains to keep for so long.

10-18-2023, 07:14 AM	#6
zionius Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2021 Posts: 18	Indeed, thanks for the comprehensive explanation!