3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles

[ArcusCalion]

I do not think it is so simply one or the other Fin. In The Hobbit and LotR, Gwaihir and Landroval are given familial relations and ancestries, placing them firmly in the domain of real living creatures, not incarnated spirits. It seems likely to me that Tolkien intended perhaps some of the original Great Eagles, such as Thorondor, to have been incarnated Maiar, but that the race of speaking Eagles themselves were NOT purely spiritual beings. Therefore I think we can find a way to reconcile these two things.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I do not think it is so simply one or the other Fin. In The Hobbit and LotR, Gwaihir and Landroval are given familial relations and ancestries, placing them firmly in the domain of real living creatures, not incarnated spirits. It seems likely to me that Tolkien intended perhaps some of the original Great Eagles, such as Thorondor, to have been incarnated Maiar, but that the race of speaking Eagles themselves were NOT purely spiritual beings. Therefore I think we can find a way to reconcile these two things.

This is more or less my line of thought as well.

After all, we have at least one instance of an Ainu procreating (Melian), so why not some others (i.e. Thorondor)?

However, Melian (an Ainu) had a child with Thingol (an Elf): who's to say that Thorondor (an Ainu) didn't procreate with some other Eagle-shaped Ainu - making all of his descendants Ainur by extension?

Sure, we are told that the Valar refrained from procreation, since it is the most physically 'binding' act of all - but that doesn't mean that the Maiar were all exclusively bound to this rule of thumb: some, like Melian, were probably ordained by Eru (via dreams and visions, as per the NoME) to travel to Middle-earth, and eventually make a (temporary) home there, even to the point of procreation!

So - what's stopping Thorondor in making his own 'Maiarindi' (so to speak )? Because if he did so, it was surely due to designs/vision of Iluvatar.

[Findegil]

I agree it is most likely that Thorondir 'procreated with some other Eagle-shaped Ainu'. But if so, for what do we need 'the Eagles of the Lords of the West’ that Manwë and Yavanna create together in this chapter?

Or is your line of thinking that the Ainur in Eagle-shape might be a to small number for what istold about the eagles in the Battel of the five Armies and in the Battle of the Black Gate?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I agree it is most likely that Thorondir 'procreated with some other Eagle-shaped Ainu'. But if so, for what do we need 'the Eagles of the Lords of the West’ that Manwë and Yavanna create together in this chapter?

Or is your line of thinking that the Ainur in Eagle-shape might be a to small number for what istold about the eagles in the Battel of the five Armies and in the Battle of the Black Gate?

Respectfully
Findegil

Frankly, I'm undecided.

However, since the 'Eagles are Maiar' account is very late, I think it should (if we can't find a way to somehow merge them) take precedence over the earlier account in 'Of the Ents and Eagles'.