Of Men

[Arvegil145]

Isn't the Tale of Adanel just that - a tale, vaguely remembered among the descendants of the original Men?

So why put so much weight to it?


I'm saying this because I don't think we should delete the references to Nuin awakening Ermon and Elmir, nor them teaching the other Men language.


Also, a fun fact - if Tu (being a fay in the BoLT) is a Maia, that would fit nicely with this statement in the NoME:

Men awake VY 1075 (and are hidden from other contacts by Melkor)? But Eru independently of Manwë sends messages and messengers to them (and the Elves). That is about 10,800 Sun-years after Elves [awoke] and 15 VYs (or 2,160 SYs) before the attack of the Valar. The Valar do not discover Men (whose centre was far south of Utumno*), and think the removal of Melkor probably sufficient protection: they are not supposed to "meddle" with Men, but only guard them so that they can develop as they should. But they are anxious, especially after they discover that Melkor had already affected the Quendi; and are aware that by no means all of Melkor’s evil associates and forces had been destroyed or captured. They are therefore always sending out emissaries and explorers to Middle-earth during the Captivity of Melkor.

- The Nature of Middle-earth, 'The Awaking of the Quendi', Text A, p. 39 (dating from c. 1959)


Of course, in this text Tolkien had a completely different conception of the timeline of Arda, as well as the duration of the Valian years - but that is in and of itself irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make: which is that Eru sent actual messengers to the OG Men from the very beginning!


*There is also an interesting note to the text by Carl Hostetter which deals with the location of Men's original homeland far south of Utumno, which goes:

Far south and, presumably, far east of Utumno. At one point Tolkien baldly stated that: "The Great Central Land, Europe and Asia, was first inhabited. Men awoke in Mesopotamia" (IX:410).

The reference to the 'IX:410' refers to this passage in Sauron Defeated, 'The Drowning of Anadune', Note 2, p. 410:

"The Great Central Land, Europe and Asia, was first inhabited. Men awoke in Mesopotamia. Their fates as they spread were very various. But the Enkeladim withdrew ever west."

'Enkeladim' here meaning 'Elves'.

[Findegil]

Most of the texts we work with are just tales! For me The Tale of Adanel and the philosophy of Athrabeth would no longer work at all, if Men would have some dealings with other Ainur or incarnates. The Voice is asking them to learn from expirence not from others. And the interpretation of the gift as presented in the Athrabeth seems to me only possible when you can't compare it to the longvety of the Elves or imortility of the Ainur.

Therefore I think Nuin can't wacke Ermon and Elmir and has to leave the newly awoken Men to sameself for a time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Most of the texts we work with are just tales! For me The Table of Adanel and the philosophy of Athrabeth would no longer work at all, if Men would have some dealings with other Ainur or incarnates. The Voice is asking them to learn from expirence not from others. And the interpretation of the gift as presented in the Athrabeth seems to me only possible when you can't compare it to the longvety of the Elves or imortility of the Ainur.

Therefore I think Nuin can't wacke Ermon and Elmir an dhas to leave the newly awoken Men to same self for a time.

Respectfully
Findegil

The text in the NoME doesn't necessarily mean that the original Men had messengers sent to them immediately after their Awakening (especially since the said text outright states that Eru sent messages to the original Men too).


Also, Men have notoriously unreliable memories - especially across multiple generations!

[Findegil]

Sorry, Arvegil145, I lost your line of thought. What is you intention in this case? Or more concrete, what is your proposed change to our text?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Sorry, Arvegil145, I lost your line of thought. What is you intention in this case? Or more concrete, what is your proposed change to our text?

Respectfully
Findegil

I'm proposing that we keep Nuin's awakening of Ermon and Elmir, as well as Nuin's teaching of language to Men, etc. - basically, almost everything that's been cut out from 'Gilfanon's Tale'.

And since the ancient history of Men is murky at best (obviously), I don't see any problems with us keeping multiple different accounts of their ancestral past (ala the Tale of Adanel).

Moreover, I don't even see too much contradiction between these accounts, as per my previous reply - but that doesn't actually matter IMO.



Tl;dr - when it comes to origins of Men, I have zero problems with including multiple contradictory accounts (even though I believe they're not as contradictory as they appear to be).

[Findegil]

Here is the passage from the Athrabeth does for me denie an early contact of ELves or Aniur with Men:

'This lore takes no account of you,' said Andreth, 'for we knew nothing of the Eldar. We considered only dying and not-dying. Of life as long as the world but no longer we had not heard; indeed not until now has it entered my mind.'
'To speak truly,' said Finrod, 'I had thought that this belief of yours, that ye too were not made for death, was but a dream of your pride, bred in envy of the Quendi, to equal or surpass them. Not so, you will say. Yet long ere ye came to this land, ye met other folk of the Quendi, and by some were befriended. Were ye not then already mortal? And did ye never speak with them concerning life and death? Though without any words they would soon discover your mortality, and ere long you would perceive that they did not die.'
'"Not so" I say indeed,' answered Andreth. 'We may have been mortal when first we met the Elves far away, or maybe we were not: our lore does not say, or at least none that I have learned. But already we had our lore, and needed none from the Elves: we knew that in our beginning we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.'

Andreth speaks here was a sureness not shown in many passages: When Men first meet Elves they had already gained 'their lore' about thier true nature in thier beginning. To develop such a 'lore' you need speech. Therefore Nuin as father of speech is impossible.

Anyhow, to take Nuin as one of the messangers sent by Eru himself from the NoME text would in itself deny that he would wake Ermon and Elmir before the appointed time.

To take anything from Gilfanos Tale is a stretch in itself. I think we have gone that way as far as we can.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Here is the passage from the Athrabeth does for me denie an early contact of ELves or Aniur with Men:Andreth speaks here was a sureness not shown in many passages: When Men first meet Elves they had already gained 'their lore' about thier true nature in thier beginning. To develop such a 'lore' you need speech. Therefore Nuin as father of speech is impossible.

Anyhow, to take Nuin as one of the messangers sent by Eru himself from the NoME text would in itself deny that he would wake Ermon and Elmir before the appointed time.

To take anything from Gilfanos Tale is a stretch in itself. I think we have gone that way as far as we can.

Respectfully
Findegil

I guess you can look at Nuin's awakening of Ermon and Elmir as an act of 'providence' in itself - especially since the Elves were according to Iluvatar's original plan meant to stay in Middle-earth and serve as the mentors to Men.

And as to the passage about Eru's 'messengers to Men' in the NoME, I suppose Tu serves that function better than Nuin.

But as to your reference to the Athrabeth: one thing I always took from the discussion between Finrod and Andreth, and Andreth's recital of the Tale of Adanel, is that Men seem to be profoundly clueless as to their original nature (for one), and even the Edain still hold beliefs marred by Melkor's influence.

Which is why I'm so liberal about the inclusions from the Gilfanon's Tale: all of the myths/legends/rumors about Men's early days are (and should be!) a giant mess of garbled, corrupted, and contradictory accounts.