* * Valaquenta Some proposals for a new project ... * *

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

When back in 2004 Rumohir suggested some additions from Bolt_1 to the section Of The Valar the project rejected them. Back then I was the main oposing voice. But my main argument was that they did not fit the later seperation of Valar and Maiar in The Valaquenta. That argument is still true for the palcement that Rumohir suggested. But I would be open to such additions from Bolt_1 or other sources, her in the Of the Maiar part, if we can incooperat them nicely. (But looking back to the history of this project, we changed a reference to the 'Manir and Suruli' to the more general 'Maiar'. Nonethelss we included the Eärni after some discussion that I could not find right now.)

And in this special case I see a issue with the passge from PE 15: How do we work with the references to Wéland, Böðvildr and Niðhad? They are fully okay in the context of Eriol/Ælfwine talking to Rúmil, but without Ælfwine, how could we explain such references to 'other/outer manish legends'?

Respectfully
Findegil

Also, what exactly is the problem with 'Manir' and 'Suruli' (aside from linguistics)? Weren't there countless unnamed Maiar in the later legendarium?

According to another PE text (PE 14, 'The Creatures of the Earth', pp. 9-10), there's plenty of minor 'Maiar' ('fay') factions:

1) 'Nermir' - fays (i.e. Maiar) of the meads

2) 'Tavari' - fays (Maiar) of the woods

3) 'Nandini' - fays (Maiar) of the valleys

4) 'Orossi' - fays (Maiar) of the mountains

5) 'Manir' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar)

6) 'Suruli' - fays/children of the Gods (still probably Maiar)

7) 'Malkarauki' - fays (Balrogs - still probably Maiar)


And yet according to another PE 14 text (simply called 'Valar', p. 10), the 'fays' (i.e. Maiar) are divided into 4 elemental groups: air, earth, water, and fire:

1) Air: 'Manir', 'Suruli'

2) Earth: 'Tavari', 'Nermir', 'Nandini', 'Pelloini' (not seen before), 'Alandri' (not seen before) - while 'Orossi' is missing from the list

3) Water: 'Wingildi', 'Oarni/Oaritsi', 'Nenuvar', 'Ailior', 'Ektelarni', 'Capalini' - not of whom were seen before

4) Fire: - - no entries - - (see below, under 'Sacha')



However, there are also individual 'fays/fairies/early Valar' (i.e. Maiar) named throughout Parma Eldalamberon:

1) Sacha (or Sáya) - the "fire-fay", only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 66)

2) Ailinónë - a 'fay' that dwelt on a lily on a pool, probably one of the Nenuvar, only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 29)

3) Nardi - a 'flower-Vala/fairy', only mentioned in the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 68)

4) Tavros - the chief 'wood-fay', probably one of the Tavari, only mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 69)

5) Tethil (or Tetillë) - a 'flower fay' inhabiting poppies, mentioned in the 'Gnomish Lexicon' (PE 11, p. 70), as well as the 'Qenya Lexicon' (PE 12, p. 92)

[Aiwendil]

Just realizing now that there were changes to our text from 2019 that I haven't looked at yet. I will review these when I get a chance. I am, however, on vacation with limited Internet access for the next week.

I remain skeptical about inserting a host of names of Maiar from early sources, though I do not have access to PE14 and PE15. Also, the argument I see against Velindo/Gwilion is that it seems that the whole intention behind him was to be Weland. To retain him while eliminating the whole point of his existence does not sit right with me.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Just realizing now that there were changes to our text from 2019 that I haven't looked at yet. I will review these when I get a chance. I am, however, on vacation with limited Internet access for the next week.

I remain skeptical about inserting a host of names of Maiar from early sources, though I do not have access to PE14 and PE15. Also, the argument I see against Velindo/Gwilion is that it seems that the whole intention behind him was to be Weland. To retain him while eliminating the whole point of his existence does not sit right with me.

If it makes you feel any better (or worse ), Tolkien later decided to equate Weland with Feanor! See this article on TG that I wrote for further descent into insanity: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/F%C3...nd/F%C3%ABanor


With that said, there are plenty of instances in the early legendarium where famous mythological figures are equated with the characters in Tolkien's stories - for example:

It is then said, somewhat inconsequentially (though the matter is in itself of much interest, and recurs nowhere else), that Eriol told the fairies of 'Wóden', 'Þunor', 'Tíw', etc. (these being the Old English names of the Germanic gods who in Old Scandinavian form are 'Óðinn', 'Þórr', 'Týr'), and they identified them with Manweg, Tulkas, and a third whose name is illegible but is not like that of any of the great Valar.

- The Book of Lost Tales: Part Two, 'The History of Eriol or Ælfwine', outline 10, p. 290

[Arvegil145]

Not directly related, but: Thuringwethil is described as a 'bat-shaped fay' (i.e. Maia) in the Etymologies in The Lost Road, entry THUR-, p. 393.

[Findegil]

I do not find any discussion about Manir and Suruli, and I don't remember what was my reason to remove them, other than that a single mention in the place where they where encountered would only have caused confusion in a reader: If we do not mention and explain what they are, they have to be removed when later mentioned.

I am not agianst all these fay's from the old souces. But to add them in good way, without creativ writing seems to be not easy. Beside that all names of groups and induvidual will need a check if still possible in the later tongue (which I can't do).

Respectfully
Findegil