Saruman taking ring from Gandalf..

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As posters mentioned above (years ago now) there is an apparent disconnect between what is written in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. One suggests that the location of Narya was not known by others, and the other suggests that Saruman knew Gandalf wielded that Ring. LoTR is silent on this issue.

Obviously Tolkien's drafts can contradict themselves, but in this case I don't think they even do. Leaving aside the fact that knowing Gandalf has Narya is different to deducing it, the Silm quote has context:

Therefore ere the Third Age was ended the Elves perceived that the Ring of Sapphire was with Elrond, in the fair valley of Rivendell... whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lórien... But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan knew to whom it had been committed.

"None" refers to the Eldar; it's not a blanket statement, but just a description of what the Elves had figured out. It's actually not entirely clear that they knew who wore Nenya and Vilya - just which realms they were in. They couldn't figure out where Narya was, because there was no third realm being preserved like those two. Saruman was working from different perception, and different assumptions.

Fantastic point about the (lack of) magical duel. If we take "persuade" at face value, Saruman might even have still been hoping to win Gandalf to his cause (presumably as "with our powers combined we could take down Sauron", which is Gandalf's ostensible goal). Generally speaking, breaking someone's fingers and stealing one of the world's most powerful artefacts from them isn't a great way to get their help.

hS