Saruman taking ring from Gandalf..

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Lost One

The problem with Gandalf somehow distracting Saruman from Narya is that he was trapped in Saruman's place of power and, by his own explicit admission in recounting his tale at Rivendell, was completely powerless.

In fairness, when he said that he was still concealing the existence of Narya from the people he was talking to...

I wonder whether Thrain provides an answer to this very interesting question. He, too, was imprisoned by a rogue Maia while carrying objects of great importance - and he, too, managed to keep them a secret. In Thrain's case, he was willing to give up his Ring (surely the easiest to hide!) to Sauron in order to keep the map and key to Erebor safe. Is it unreasonable to say that Gandalf, a being of higher order facing one of less power than Sauron, and not suffering torture either, was able to preserve even a Ring of Power? Perhaps he was "completely powerless" to escape because he was exerting all his power to keep Narya safe.

Perhaps the answer is as simple as this: Gandalf would be a tough nut to crack. Saruman decided to let him moulder away on top of Orthanc for a while before he tried to take a Ring of Power from him, even in his seemingly-defeated state. There was lots to do, and the Dark Lord's plans were not yet ready to be launched... and it wasn't like Gandalf was going anywhere, right? Hey, what's that flapping noise?

hS

[Mithadan]

Great old thread! Thanks for reawakening it!

As posters mentioned above (years ago now) there is an apparent disconnect between what is written in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. One suggests that the location of Narya was not known by others, and the other suggests that Saruman knew Gandalf wielded that Ring. LoTR is silent on this issue.

Setting aside whether the two statements can be reconciled, let's assume that Saruman knew or suspected that Gandalf wore Narya. Gandalf arrives at Orthanc. Saruman discloses his intentions regarding the One Ring. Gandalf rejects him. The two Wizards have a wild magical duel. Gandalf is defeated and is magically restrained and imprisoned on the pinnacle of Orthanc. Considering this, our dilemma is unsolvable. Knowing that Gandalf had Narya, which Saruman obviously coveted, and having defeated Gandalf in a violent magical duel, Saruman should have forcibly taken Narya. This makes no sense... Wait a minute...

The magical duel was an element only of the movies, of course. There is no such duel in the books. FoTR states that when Gandalf arrived at Isengard, he was met at the strongly guarded gates and was escorted to Orthanc where he entered, and the guards led him to Saruman's "high chamber." Gandalf is offered his choices; join with Saruman or work for Sauron. Gandalf choses neither, and "they," meaning the guards and perhaps also Saruman, take him to the pinnacle, until Saruman "can find means to persuade" him. This seems to mean that Saruman could not easily defeat Gandalf via force.

While the books imply a hierarchy among the Wizards, white, grey, brown, blue, there is no clear indication that Saruman was significantly more "powerful" than Gandalf. The grey wizard certainly respected the white. But recall that Galadriel wanted Gandalf, not Saruman, placed in charge of the White Counsel. Recall also that when the wizards were sent to Middle Earth, they were "incarnated." They did not assume the guise of old men, they were old men, and they were forbidden from meeting preternatural force with force.

Note that while Gandalf was deemed one of the wise and had deep knowledge and skills, he rarely displayed any significant "magical" ability. He designed fireworks, and caused a flash in the Goblin's cave when they captured the Dwarves that killed a few Orcs and let him escape. During the Battle of Five Armies, he actually fights with a sword, though Bilbo suspected that he was planning some last magical act. It is not until he is resurrected as Gandalf the White that he exercises real power.

Perhaps Saruman does not attempt to take Narya from Gandalf by force simply because he is not sure that he could do so. Surely Gandalf would resist any such attempt. Perhaps Saruman was content to lock Gandalf away under guard until he saw the error of his ways through slow duress, or Sauron ultimately prevailed. Keep in mind that the real prize was not Narya, but the One Ring, and Saruman knew that Gandalf was aware of its whereabouts. Even so, Saruman did not attempt to use force to compel Gandalf to reveal where the Ring could be found.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

As posters mentioned above (years ago now) there is an apparent disconnect between what is written in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. One suggests that the location of Narya was not known by others, and the other suggests that Saruman knew Gandalf wielded that Ring. LoTR is silent on this issue.

Obviously Tolkien's drafts can contradict themselves, but in this case I don't think they even do. Leaving aside the fact that knowing Gandalf has Narya is different to deducing it, the Silm quote has context:

Therefore ere the Third Age was ended the Elves perceived that the Ring of Sapphire was with Elrond, in the fair valley of Rivendell... whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lórien... But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan knew to whom it had been committed.

"None" refers to the Eldar; it's not a blanket statement, but just a description of what the Elves had figured out. It's actually not entirely clear that they knew who wore Nenya and Vilya - just which realms they were in. They couldn't figure out where Narya was, because there was no third realm being preserved like those two. Saruman was working from different perception, and different assumptions.

Fantastic point about the (lack of) magical duel. If we take "persuade" at face value, Saruman might even have still been hoping to win Gandalf to his cause (presumably as "with our powers combined we could take down Sauron", which is Gandalf's ostensible goal). Generally speaking, breaking someone's fingers and stealing one of the world's most powerful artefacts from them isn't a great way to get their help.

hS