Beren in Dagor Dagorath

[Galin]

Actually, now that I think more about it . . .

. . . I suppose I could look at the Problem of ROS text as starting off external, but once Tolkien goes into solution mode, we are in in-story territory.

If I look at things that way, I'll have to think even more about the matter, which makes me sleepy in any case!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Sorry, I think I got tangled up in my own thoughts. Tolkien wrote "unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true". As the author, he obviously knows whether the prophecy is true or not;

Sorry, I only have a quick reaction to this - a methodological one, so to speak: as I read the last sentence, it struck me that of course that is or may not be, strictly speaking, true. I mean that we know that Tolkien's modus operandi was (meticulous footnotes to footnotes and plans notwithstanding) was also that he is not inventing the story, he is discovering it. So in that framework, he himself may not have known whether ultimately the prophecy was true or not. Perhaps he would later "discover" that it was, disregarding everything. And perhaps the lack of clarity just reflects the fact that when he wrote those deliberations, he was not sure himself whether they are true or not.

(I personally like to operate in that framework, but this is only chiming in - if you are the type of seekers that want hard facts and definite solutions, obviously not stopping you. It only occurred to me to offer this alternative point for those who may like it, and in general to remind of that aspect of Tolkien's mythological writing.)

[Arvegil145]

I really don't want to sound rude or anything, but can we get back to the original topic?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I really don't want to sound rude or anything, but can we get back to the original topic?

Sure. I've spent chunks of today roughing together a timeline of Tolkien's post-LotR texts. Not done yet, but I'm wondering if it could guide it towards some other texts that might shed some light on the addition of Beren to the Dagorath.

One obvious place is the Athrabeth. The main text of Finrod's talk with Andreth seems to post-date the Quenta revisions, so does the lady herself have anything to say about her prophecies?

Well... possibly. Finrod certainly touches on the same area. He talks of his vision, of Men as "deliverers" of the Eldar. Then, when Andreth brings up the Old Hope, he says that surely the only power that can destroy Melkor is Eru Himself. It almost seems like Andreth's vision is an answer to Finrod's philosophy - perhaps Men could defeat Melkor themselves, and not need the Old Hope which she rejects.

It also occurs to me that all of the Men named in the prophecy - Turin, Beren, and Earendil - are her own close kin: they're all descended from her brother Bregor. Maybe rather than a grand prophecy - "the wrath of the Morgoth shall be upon the earth, yet the One-Handed shall return at that hour" - we should be thinking something closer to Huor's death-vision: "from you and from me a new star will arise."

In fact, could it literally be Andreth's death-vision? The Athrabeth notably doesn't say she had the gift of foresight, talking instead of learning and wisdom; but she survived the Bragollach, into the time when Dorthonion was under attack from Sauron. That means she knew Beren, Morwen, and Rian; and perhaps on her deathbed she called them to her and said something like:

"The world is dark now, and I hear the ring of swords in my ears. But in you children I see the Light, and the Sword that will drive the dark to its end; and when the Nameless is at last defeated utterly, though it take many ages of the World, I know that it will be your hand that brings him low, your sword that strikes the final blow, your light that shows all the world his fall."

Hand -- sword -- light works well for Beren -- Turin -- Earendil, and fits neatly into the "new star will arise" idiom of mortal prophecy.

hS

[Arvegil145]

So, I've recently found a passage from The Children of Hurin which somehow went under my radar all this time.

It isn't really pertinent to the main topic of this thread per se, but I think it's fascinating nonetheless, and I don't really know where else to post it.

This passage (possibly) pertains to the idea of Turin coming back from...somewhere...and (maybe) inflicting the killing blow to Morgoth:

‘If any of us three be faithless, it is I: but not in will. But what of your doom and rumours of Angband? What of death and destruction? The Adanedhel is mighty in the tale of the World, and his stature shall reach yet to Morgoth in some far day to come.’

- The Children of Hurin, 'Turin in Nargothrond', p. 169; part of a conversation between Finduilas and Gwindor


This passage was brought to light to me by the user 'Mitchboy1995' on the r/TolkienFans (https://old.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans..._the_children/ ).


When do you think this passage was written? If I had to guess, sometime in the mid-to-late 1950's, alongside the majority of the CoH.

Regardless, what is everyone's impression of this passage?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Of course, it could be much nearer term and refer simply to the killing of Glaurung, depriving Morgoth of one of his top three servants

[Huinesoron]

"The Adanedhel is mighty in the tale of the World, and his stature shall reach yet to Morgoth in some far day to come."

[...]

Maybe Finduilas spoke truly, seeing with the keen eyes of the Eldar.

(The second line is a couple of paragraphs later; it's unclear how much of the conversation Finduilas is supposed to have spoken truly in.)

Could 'some far day' indicate the time no more than a decade later when Turin would kill Glaurung? Finduilas is an Elf of Valinor, already well over 500 years old at this point. My instinct is that when she talks about "a far day" in "the tale [or Song] of the World", she means just that: the far, far future. She also says Turin's stature shall 'reach yet to Morgoth', which to me means he will be as important in the Music as the Dark Lord. Killing a dragon doesn't really manage that.

If this is about the Last Battle, then it would come from before the amendments to the Second Prophecy in 1958, and the addition of Beren to the party that take on Morgoth. So like you say, it doesn't really touch on the main topic of the thread.

I wonder, though, whether Finduilas is actually prophecying herself here - or if she's quoting someone. She is a bit of a follower, and if we look at the Legendarium as a whole, she could easily be quoting Finrod, who would in turn be quoting Andreth the Wise.

hS