4 Of the coming of the Elves

[Aiwendil]

Great to see you, ArcusCalion!

I had done some work on a new version along the lines of my proposal, but unfortunately a number of other things have conspired to keep me very busy. This will continue next week, but the week after I'll be on vacation and should have plenty of time to look over Findegil's latest post.

[ArcusCalion]

Well, after many days of reviewing and re-familiarizing myself with the text, the different versions, as well as the many many MANY layers of discussion about the same few paragraphs, I have organized my thoughts. Honestly, before reading Fin's last post, I had MANY more comments, but I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal, as it solves nearly (if not) all of Aiwendil's objections, while maintaining all of the essential essences of Tolkien's proposed changes from MT VI. Nonetheless, I have several, mostly minor stylistic or organizational suggestions, as well as various comments for other points in the chapter. Everything I do not specifically mention I agree to.

CE-EX-01: There is a portion of LT I think we can take up in the beginning here:

But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
CE-EX-01.5 <Lost Tales At that time did many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in. Some came from Mandos, aged spirits that journeyed from Ilúvatar with him who are older than the world and very gloomy and secret, and some from the fortresses of the North where {Melko}[Melkor] then dwelt in the deep dungeons of {Utumna}[Utumno]. Full of evil and unwholesome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before. But some few danced thither with gentle feet exuding evening scents, and these came from the gardens of Lóriën.
Still is the world full of these in the days of light, lingering alone in shadowy hearts of primeval forests, calling secret things across a starry waste, and haunting caverns in the hills that few have found: — but the pinewoods are yet too full of these old {unelfin}[un-Elven] and inhuman spirits for the quietude of Eldar or of Men.>

That there are spirits living in the world during later days is a known fact (Goldberry the 'River's Daughter') as well as the myriad of speaking creatures in Tolkien's later writing. While it's true he makes no specific mention of these beings later on, I do not think their existence is contradicted, and I think it worthwhile to include them here.

CE-EX-03.2/03.3: Again, another small inclusion from the Lost Tales to add some color to Varda's making of the Stars:

.... by the Elves Elentári, the Queen of the Stars.
CE-EX-03.2 <LT {and}She fared upon her wings of speed, and set stars about the firmament in very great profusion, so that the skies grew marvelously fair and their glory was doubled; and those stars that she then fashioned have a power of slumbers, for the silver of their bodies came of the treasury of Lóriën and their radiance had lain in {Telimpe}[Silindirin] long time in his garden.> Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, CE-EX-03.3 <LT and {that} Morwinyon who blazes above the world's edge in the west was dropped by her as she fared in great haste back to Valinor.> {and}And other of her works ......

CE-EX-03.4/03.5: In the many cuts and pastes and rewrites to the text, I have this passage marked with the marker CE-EX-03 but that has already been used for the addition to the first paragraph. So I will label this marker CE-EX-03.4 and I wished to include a bit of LQ as it adds a nice detail and names a star not elsewhere named:

CE-EX-03.4 <AAm{§37} In that hour, it is said, CE-EX-03.5 <LQ when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world,> the Quendi, the Elder .....

CE-EX-26: The correct elvish should be Utúlieltë! Utúlieltë, so you were nearly right Aiwendil. I had mentioned this in one of my previous posts before Aiwendil proposed his own draft, but with all the developments of the chapter it is easy for such things to get lost.

CE-EX-27: I do not know why the use of 'Eldar' is problematic here. Just before this, we have this:

Themselves {they}the Elves named the Quendi CE-SL-10 {, whom we call Elves (quoth Ælfwine)}; but Oromë named them in their own tongue Eldar, people of the stars, .....

and directly after this change we have the folk of the Valar saying "I Eldar-tulier". Thus I think we should not change "Eldar" to "First-born. We have plenty of usage of Elvish words by the Valar before they met the Elves, so I think such idiosyncrasies can be chocked up to the fact that the Valar were likely in reality speaking Valarin, but the Elves recorded it in Elvish, and (for the purposes of our project) Bilbo left it in for flavor (much like Tolkien would have done).

CE-SL-11.5c: I would change the sentence very slightly:

... that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from {the}his shadows{ of Melkor}.'

CE-EX-28.2: Now to the question of Tilkal. I think we must address the etymology of the word, as simply deleting the footnote does not answer the question of its validity. Personally, I think Tolkien is being very deliberate here with this metal. I do not know how much any of you are familiar with alchemy/occultism, but the metals Tolkien cites here are 6 of the 7 metals associated with the planets, the days of the week, and various angels. Lead, Tin, Copper, Silver, Gold, Iron, and Tilkal the last (in occultism/alchemy the seventh is mercury). That Tolkien also deliberately made names for the planets which correspond to these metals (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun and Moon) seems also no coincidence. Therefore, I think the odd etymology of the word is deliberate, and meant to invoke an alchemical/magical property of the metal itself. Therefore I think its inclusion and updating are worth doing. The later word for 'copper' is given as Urus, lead and tin are never given elsewhere, but these words fit well into later quenya phonology, and so may be accepted (Latúcen and Canu) and Anga for iron remains the same. Aiwendil is correct, however, that Laurë and Ilsa (later Silmë) are in later Quenya specifically words for light. However, we can simply use the name of the metal (Culu or Malta for gold and Tyelpë for silver). This gives us the letters U, L, C, A, T, and a C or M. Putting these together can give us the acronym Tulcam which is nearly identical, and I think worth using instead of tilkal, and we may update the elvish in the footnote accordingly.

CE-EX-28.4: As to the question of these words' validity in later Quenya, it is complex. Vorotemnar seems to be voro - "ever, always" and some derivative of the early "qenya" root ᴱ√TEME - 'to bind, to tie." However, another root was later given this same meaning in Quenya: ᴹ√NUT. In the text Tolkien says "Vorotemnar that bind forever" so if we take it to mean (literally) "ever-binding" we can use Voronutalë. As for Ilterendi, this is much less clear. All we can guess at its meaning is that it likely came from the early Qenya root ᴱ√YḶTḶ meaning "to yoke, join." From this qenya yalta "yoke", and Gnomish ilt- "to yoke, join." This seems to have been replaced by another root much later ᴹ√YAN "join" from which we get words like Quenya yanta "bridge." The (er)endi portion of the word is obscure to me. The text explains that the meaning signifies "they may not be filed or cleft." However, I do not see how this meaning can be gleaned from this word. Any replacement name we give them would be entirely invented on our part, but the name as it is cannot be said to be accurate Quenya.

CE-EX-35.1: I added a marker here for the discussion of Falman and Vailimo. I will do my best to lay out the linguistics of it. Falman is derived from the early version of the later root √PHAL - "foam, splash' as in falas and other words having to do with the shore. Specifically there exists the word Falma for 'crested wave' in later Quenya, which has been a word for a long time. The nominal ending -on is a common masculine name ending, and I believe Falman is simply an early version using -an instead of -on. Therefore I would keep the name, but change it to Falmon instead. As to Vailimo this is meant to be a title in the same vein as Súlimo, being a royal-type masculine suffix (-mo. Vai was Tolkien's old name for the Outer Ocean, which later became Vaiya and even later Ekkaia(Eccaia). I do not know if Eccaia replaced Vaiya or not, as both as still valid Quenya words with different etymologies, but from these we can get Vaiyamo or Eccaiamo as the updated title of Ulmo. Either should be fine, but I personally prefer Vaiyamo as it remains closer to the original and accords with it in meaning. Hopefully that made some sense!

CE-EX-36.5: This passage from the Grey Annals seems worth including, and indeed I suggested so earlier in the thread, but it undoubtedly got lost in the many revisions. Anyway, here seems the best place to put it:

CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. CE-EX-36.2 <GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But after two years the Valar passed into ....

Now we come to the stuff which Fin has done a marvelous job fixing up. I must say, I am very impressed. Just a few things.

CE-EX-46b: I do not think this speech from Makar quite works put into the mouth of Melkor. It feels too 'cheeky' from him when he is meant to be enraged/humbled/despondent/plotting all at once. I think it is best to leave this dialogue out.

CE-SL-15.2: I found a small addition from AAm which we can put here:

..... rather than making high debate of them. CE-EX-46.5 <AAm [Indeed] it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.> Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved .....

CE-EX-39.1: I am somewhat confused by the inclusion of the bit about dwelling as a servant in the house of Tulkas. Maybe I am forgetting something, but is this contradicting anything in the later text?

CE-EX-48: Tuivána is still a valid name for Vana, although it only appears in the Lost Tales. However, the Quenya is still good.

CE-EX-49: See my above comments for CE-EX-01.5 but I think the inclusion of these references is worth keeping.

CE-EX-50: I agree with Aiwendil that the references to Mandos and Nienna must be removed completely, but I think the dialogue we here attribute to Ulmo must go as well, as it completely goes against his character, as it was originally said by Makar:

... whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar {- ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and Mandos and Fui were cold to the Eldar as to all else}; yet was Varda vehement in support ....

CE-EX-51.1: I agree with Aiwendil to remove the reference to Ossë entirely.

CE-EX-52b: I agree to the new placement suggested, but I also found an inclusion we can take from the Lost Tales:

CE-EX-52b <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen].> CE-EX-52.5 <LT Now all the slopes of that valley and the bare margin of the lake, even the rugged fringes of the hills beyond, {be}were filled with a concourse of folk who gazed in wonder at the stars, and some {sing}sang already with voices that {are}were very beautiful. But {Nornore}[Oromë] stood upon a hill and was amazed for the beauty of that folk, and because he was a Vala they seemed to him marvelously small and delicate and their faces wistful and tender. Then did he speak in the great voice of the Valar and all those shining faces turned towards his voice.
‘Behold O Eldalië, desired are ye for all the age of twilight, and sought for throughout the ages of peace, and I come even from Manwë Súlimo Lord of the {Gods}[Valar] who abides upon Taniquetil in peace and wisdom to you who are the Children of Ilúvatar, and these are the words he put into my mouth to speak: {Let now some few of you come}Come back with me {— for am I not Nornore herald of the Valar —} and enter Valinor and speak with him, that he may learn of your coming and of all your desires.’>
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling ....

CE-EX-58.3: I think even this small addition Fin kept of the larger linguistic material from Quendi and the Eldar should be removed. It feels far too analytical, and it would fit better within its proper context of the discussion of the terminology of the different elvish groups in Volume 3. I also hesitate with CE-EX-67 but I will leave it in, as it is primarily not linguistic. However, CE-EX-75 does not need to be added, as it can be placed in context in Volume 3.

I think we are nearly to the end of this chapter! It has been quite a hard, long, and heated process, but I really do think that this chapter is becoming far better than it was before thanks to all of our work together. I look forward to hearing from you both!

[Aiwendil]

I haven't had time to review the latest posts in detail (and will have to wait until probably next Saturday to do so) but I wanted to pop in to comment on one thing.

Findegil wrote:

The first way out of this dilemma I thought about comes from these passages from MT VII and UT, Istari: ‘He[ Manwë], like Melkor, practically never is seen or heard of outside or far away from his own halls and permanent residence.’ ‘Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.’ At least the UT text is seemingly later than every text we work with here including MT VI. Taken to be literary truth that would mean Manwë is completely out of the campaign against Utumno and thus the first possible meeting of Manwë and Melkor is at council.

I think you are misreading the context of that statement from UT. The point of view of those essays always seems to be that of the late Third Age, or at least, long after the First Age. It does not say "Manwe <i>did</i> not descend from the Mountain . . ."; it says "Manwe <i>will</i> not descend . . ." It is a statement about the future, not the past. To take this to mean that once his halls were built on Taniquetil, he never left them seems to me to be absurd, and I certainly don't think we should be editing texts to <i>remove</i> him from the Battle of the Powers.

I realize that this is somewhat tangential to the main thrust of your proposal, and again, I'm looking forward to reviewing that when I can, but I just wanted to comment on this one point.

[Findegil]

I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal

Thank you for the flowers, but let me first see, what Aiwendil has to say, before I claim that I can still make a decent compromise-draft.
Reading further howmany of your suggestions have not yet found my working copy, I have some doubts about my talent as a text keeper. For execuse I can only bring forward that the chapter is still work in progress and that before prepare a text for an update in the forum, I check all the discussion. But still it is doubtfull if I would have catched them all. In short I am glad you made that review and reminded me!

CE-EX-01.5: I like that addition, even so it is not clear what spirits are meant (as it shuold not be for sure) we have later examples as you mention.

CE-EX-03.2 & CE-EX-03.3: I agree to these addition as well. Even so we might suspect that it is more legendary than a real description of Varda at work. (I personanly find it very sad, that Christopher Tolkien did cut out the actual smithing of the sun-ship by Aulë in LT.)

CE-EX-03.5: Good catch! How did that got lost? May be at one point we thought of including Telimektar, who was to become that configuration of stars, but I can't remember.

CE-EX-26: It is good to have your input in all these linguistical questions! Utúlieltë it will be and I corrected as well the answer tu utúlier.

CE-EX-27: The idea behind the change was that none of the Valar could have know that name, since up to that time Oromë had it given to the Quendi when he was alone with them. But in the end the communication of the Valar might be always in more than level (verbal and mental) and therefore it might be obvious to the other Valar and Maiar what he meant. Or we might asume your explanation of transfered texts.

CE-SL-11.5c: I agree to your change. But it will be CE-SL-11.5d then.

CE-EX-28.2: I do not see how you landed at Tulcal. In the original we have Qenya Tambe, Ilsa, Latunken, Kanu, Anga, Laure => Tilkal. Now this would in Quenya change to Urus, Tyelpë, Latúcen, Canu, Anga, Culu => Uilcac
Even if we change the order (wish I am hesistant about) we have only one L and thus can't build Tulcal.

CE-EX-28.4: I can't help much in this questions, but with yoked/joined as on element the other element must mean some thing like everlasting.

Sad as it is, it seems to me that if we do not find beter solution for the lingustical riddels, we have to eliminat all 3 names.

CE-EX-35.1: I have nothing to add to Falman => Falmon. But to Valimo => Vaiyamo: Vaiya we considered still valid when we discussed Ambarcanta. There we have still the concept of Vaiya being more like water below and more like air above the earth. And we are told that the more sea-like part is called Ekkaia. But in the next sentence we are told: 'In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo.' Thus Vaiyamo seems fully justified.


CE-EX-35.1: I agree to includ this passage, but I think it has to come a bit earlier:

CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth CE-EX-36.2b{, and all that region was much broken}.<GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into ...

CE-EX-46: Well it was a trial. We can leave it out, which is the saver way.

CE-EX-46.5: I missed not only that passage but as well the sentence before it: 'There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe.' Thus as a fact that I missed in AAm which is the last version before MT VI we have Melkor sue for pardon twice: first at the council after the War of Powers and a second time after his 3 ages of imprisonment. This does render my first attemp, that I mentioned at the begining of my last post possible. I will give it below as far as necessary to show its differences and discuss its pros and cons.
As for this version this is a good addition where ArcusCalion put it.

CE-EX-39.1: Not explicitly contradicted but, ArcusCalion is right we have to change this:

CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."

CE-EX-48 - CE-EX-51.1: Agreed.

CE-EX-52.5: Good find! I agree to its inclusion.

CE-EX-58.3 & CE-EX-67: I agree that with Q&E given in volume 3 in full, this both this passages should be removed here.

Aiwendil, I have read your post as well, even so you posted it while I worked on my again overlong posting. You might be right and I rejected that way out anyway. But as mentioned in the discussion of CE-EX-46.5 the dilemma was anyhow not there because AAm has Melkor sue for pardon twice and the first time during the council we discuss here, which I missed. So I give here as an alternative the view changes that were different in that draft I had made first:

CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5c{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow Manwë and his}followed Manwë’s herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> CE-EX-38.51<AAm Then, since he was but one against many, Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him>CE-EX-38.52<LT and {thereupon }Tulkas smote {Melko}[Melkor] full in his teeth with his fist of iron, and he {and Aulë }grappled with him, and straight he was wrapped thirty times in the fathoms of {Angaino}[Angainor].
Then said Orome: "Would that he might be slain" – and it would have been well indeed, but the {great Gods}[Valar] may not yet be slain. Now {is}was {Melko}[Melkor] held in dire bondage and beaten to his knees CE-EX-38.53 , and he {is}was constrained to command all his vassalage that they molest not the Valar -- and indeed the most of these, affrighted at the binding of their lord, fled away to the darkest places.
Tulkas indeed dragged {Melko}[Melkor] out before the gates, and there Aulë set upon each wrist one of the Vorotemnar and upon each ankle twain of the Ilterendi, and tilkal went red at the touch of {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.54, and those bands have never since been loosened from his hands and feet. Then the chain {is}was smithied to each of these and {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.55{borne}[led] thus helpless away.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}But the CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns …
…
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15bunchained {Melko}[Melkor] and fought him then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness. CE-EX-46.5b<AAm{There he lay upon his face}[Melkor kneeled] before the feet of Manwë, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwë. But{ his prayer was denied, and} it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.>
CE-EX-38.9b<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.> {and his}But the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
…

The pro of this version is that the defeat of Melkor by Tulkas is some time gone by before he meets Manwë at the council. But the con is that it forces us to make changes in the story line of MT VI. In the end we might even let Melkor sue for pardon thrice.

Respectfully,
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

To all Fin's replies to my points I agree.

CE-EX-28.2: I realized that myself, and went back to edit my post. Malta is another valid late Quenya word for gold. Culu is later said to be more red-gold, and Malta yellow-gold. Either works here I think, and having an M will be easier. So that gives us T, M, U, L, C, A. This can make Tulcam which I think works. I think it is worth keeping this word.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-28.2: I agree to use Malte since any how red-gold is always an alloy of gold with same conetent of copper (to get the red coulur), while yellow-gold is the pureer stuff (normaly with some very small content of an other metal to get more hardness).
And of course Utlcam does not sound right, so we have to change the order to Tulcam. But I would like to let the order in the text as it is and provide in the note the Quenya names of the metals and the english equivalent. My reason for it is that to get a red metal you would meed copper as a main alloying element. Therefore it could be that the elements are in order of content and even if they are in order of puting them in the mixture it would be a chame to lose that info. It might well be that Tolkien just had the names already composed and ordered them build a good sounding word. But with two of the names never used elswhere and two names label 'magic' it looks rather like an intricated composition process in which the order was may be not as freely chosen as we think.

... Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2b therefore {tilkal}[tulcam,[Footnote to the text: {T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the 'magic' names of ordinary telpe and kulu}[T(yelpë silver) U(rus copper) L(atúcen tin) C(anu lead) A(nga iron) M(alte gold)].] and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. ...

CE-EX-28.4: Ilterendi: I found in the Appendix Names in the Lost Tales - Part I. the follwoing:

Ilterendi In the text the fetters are called Ilterendi 'for they might not be filed or cleft' (p. 107); but root TERE in QL has derivatives with a sense of 'boring' (tereva 'piercing', teret 'auger, gimlet').

This suggestes for me at least that Christopher Tolkien nonetheless sought that -(t)erendi was a derivate of the qenya rout TERE. Possibly TERE had a more general meaning like 'to cut (by ship removal)'. Anyhow I do not know if that info is helpfull to find a quenya rout to from a replacement word.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

CE-EX-28.2: As unfortunate as it is, I think we will have to rearrange the order if we want to keep it. I agree to the edit you posted.

CE-EX-28.4: Ah good find! In that case I think the likely etymology of the word comes from teren(d) 'file, pierce, cleft' as a speculative derivative of ᴱ√TERE 'to pierce, bore' with the early Qenya negative prefix il- giving it the meaning 'Non-pierced.' This translation basically accords with the stated 'cannot be filed or cleft' definition. The same root became ᴹ√TER 'to pierce' Which is nearly identical, and produces many similar derivatives, so I think we can safely leave the second part of the word. However, il- in later Quenya means 'all, every' and the negative prefix was changed. La- seems like the most similar late Quenya version. This would give us Laterendi. I am happy with this if everyone else agrees to it.