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#1 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Findegil, your updated version would be very helpful, if you still have my email.
As for Notes on Motives, I will email you what I have. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-17-2021 at 06:48 PM. |
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#2 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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As I made a kind of connected / parallel editing of the account of the War of Powers and its aftermath here and in Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion, it does not make any sense to withhold the result here. Sorry Aiwendil if this renders some of your effort useless. To your relieve you will find as good as nothing added from MT. But you might still have some Frankenstein-feeling since the amount of LT material has been ‘enhanced’. But I think it should be bearable.
As a matter of fact I tried first to stick to Aiwendil’s story line as given in my post and when I produced the draft text, I was very optimistic about its success, and posted the draft for Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion. But when I wrote in the remark about my editing CE-EX-39.1 my hope nearly fell to despair. That fatal comment read originally thus (see specially the underlined part): Quote:
- It seems strange to me if Manwë first orders the war against Melkor and then stays home, but in the end that is what Denethor would call the duty of a wise ruler. - We never see Manwë stepping upon the blue chariot and wielding the bow that fired gusts of wind nor the sword of lightning to slay the Balrogs. - The Balrogs can assail ‘the standard of Manwë’, but can they be ‘withered by the wind of his wrath’ when he is far away at the Mountain of Taniquetil? Probably yes, figuratively, but it is a stretch. - All conversation with Manwë before the gate must be given to someone else or skipped. At that point in my thought, I decided against Aiwendil’s Story line and remembered one of our best friends in editing: ambiguity. The text that follows tries to combine both AAm/LQ story line and MT VI story line with both nearly unchanged. And since the plan is now to have MT VI as a whole, it should not be used (much) here and thus avoid the Frankenstein-effect. The basic idea is the following: Change the text here in a way that Manwë and Melkor meet only after Melkor is bound and hint only at Manwë’s reaction to it as given in full in MT VI. Change MT VI so that Melkor is defeated by Tulkas and bound but than meets Manwë still at Utumno and sues for pardon right there. The changes necessary to MT VI will be discussed in the thread Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion. Since the text is heavily edited, it makes no sense to reduce the text and I give it in full. Remarks on my editing will follow the text. Quote:
CE-SL-11.5c – CE-SL-13 & CE-EX-28b – CE-EX-38.2b & CE-EX-39g: I think, these changes have already been agreed upon. CE-EX-38.3: Even if we discussed this before, I may add here that it seems important to me to show Manwë’s reluctance even during the campaign. CE-EX-38.4c & CE-EX-38.5c: Now only Eönwë and Tulkas enter Utumno to allow Manwë meet Melkor only after the fight. CE-EX-38.51: Here the real changes being. As desired I kept fight between Tulkas and Melkor. The version of AAm has the benefit of given an additional reason why it is Tulkas alone. CE-EX-38.52: When we keep the fight, then I don’t see a good reason not to take up the details from LT. But of course we have to skip Aulë giving aid. CE-EX-38.53: There is here no change, but the question is if we consider that there is still vassalage to be commanded. CE-EX-38.54: The question here is of course if we can still say, that Melkor form that moment in history wore the Vorotemnar and Ilterendi for ever. In LT that was no question, since he never after gave up his bodily form. But in later versions (that we follow) he escapes from Valinor by going first north than giving up bodily form and going south to meet Ungoliant. Nonetheless I think he can be said to wear them. My reason is that these fetters have to have some verry special properties to bind an ealar. And we have an example of a physical object ‘transported’ by an ‘unhoused’ ealar: Sauron lost his body during the drowning of Númenor, but he caried the One Ring back to Middle-earth. For sure Sauron did that by his own free will and desire, but still I think with the special properties mentioned above Melkor could have been forced to carry the fetters along even when ‘unhoused’. CE-EX-46.5b: The strange numbering of this and the next change are due to my first editing. I think this is the ideal place to put Melkor’s suing and implicitly the trembling moment of realisation. That the full implication of this moment is only understood afterwards when reading the analysis of MT VI in volume 3 is a virtue and not a buck: reading the text here as it stands, the reader can still hope with Manwë that Melkor really repented and was only driven away from it by the harsh doom that Manwë had to announce to satisfy the other Valar. I took Melkor’s suing not from MT VI, because I wanted that text be stay intact. Instead it comes from the telling of the council that granted Melkor freedom after the imprisonment in Mandos as told in AAm. Up to now we used in our version telling about that later council the text from LQ which differs slightly. If we in the end use the text from AAm for that later council we will exchange this passage with the LQ text, to avoid exact same wording. For the necessity for Melkor to sue twice see the discussion about CE-EX-39.1 below. CE-EX-38.9c: The passage comes from a totally different place in LT, but if we want to use MT VI completely at a later point, than we cannot butcher it to pieces to form our text here. And we needed some text here to make the plot in MT VI work: Manwë must be shown to be driven by the demand of the assembly to a harsher doom than what he would have preferred (and Melkor expected). CE-EX-38.55b: Here we have a second concession to enable my edit of MT VI to work: Melkor must be able to kneel before Manwë not lay all the time prostrated before his feet. And if he can kneel down, he can walk by himself and must not be ‘borne’. When at first he was just ‘warped around’ with Angainor, it is clear that Tulkas has to drag him out of the pits of Utumno. But now he is bound by the fetters and the chain and done in a usual way a prisoner bound thus can stand, sit down, lay down or kneel down (on both knees and he might have difficulties to come up again) and walk by his own but he cannot run. You can of course bind down prisoner with fetters and a chain more restrictive as exemplified on Morgoth after the War of Wrath, but I do see a necessity here for more movement possibilities, which at least seem plausible. CE-EX-38.91c & CE-SL-17 & CE-EX-44d: These are nearly unchanged from my last version. They explain why there was some remains of Angband usable later and how Utumno was closed for Melkor for ever. In addition they give some worthwhile information about Melkors creatures either reassembled later or found in strange places like the door-warden in the lake at the west gate of Moria. CE-EX-44.1: I found this a worthwhile addition from AAm. CE-EX-45b: I extended this passage to include the leer upon Melkor’s face. If we take up the fight than its result should also be included. Again the question must be answered why Melkor could not ‘remove’ that leer when he build up a new body. (When he is later injured by Fingolfin and Thorondor, he is permanently incarnated as Morogth, so that limping and scars naturally remained.) But it seems that the ealar when housed in a body could not avoid to take some of the damage done to that body to have lasting effect. We have again Sauron as prominent example: First he drips blood after he was realised by Huan even so he had shape-shifted, and more important he had still only nine fingers when he tortured Gollum even so he had to rebuild that body longer after his defeat by the last alliance. CE-EX-45.1: This reason for the fight from LT has to go. CE-EX-46b: I gave Makar’s speech for Melkor’s case to Melkor himself. He seems the only one fit for putting same value into strife and conflict. And we must assume that he was allowed to speak in defence of his case. CE-SL-14: This was agreed upon already. CE-SL-15b: This we had changed when Melkor was chained, but now since he is bound by Angainor it can stand unchanged. CE-EX-39f: This is actually the only phrase taken from MT and its inclusion serves the same reason as explained in the discussion of CE-EX-38.9c above. CE-EX-39.1: In LT there has never been a second trial. Melkor did never sue for pardon, the doom was set and Melkor was handled accordingly, his time of punishment was only somewhat shortened due to the Valar’s joy about the coming of the Elves. In the later versions Melkor sues for pardon only after his imprisonment. But in MT VI we have him now sue for pardon much earlier. But MT VI says at the end that ‘The rest of the story, with Melkor's release … can then proceed more or less as already told.’ As we have no more specific information what Tolkien meant with the ‘more or less’, principal 2b forces us to go with a second trial and Melkor suing for pardon twice. CE-EX-47 & CE-SL-16b: These are the remains of our basic text edited to a usable form. Part of it was used earlier. CE-SL-18b: The original passage was as well used earlier, so it has to be removed here. And the passage inserted comes only from a few sentences above and might be a bit redundant. CE-EX-47.5: The description of Melkor’s reaction to the doom and the peace that followed after his imprisonment are most detailed in LT and therefore taken up here. Respectfully, Findegil |
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#3 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Great to see you, ArcusCalion!
I had done some work on a new version along the lines of my proposal, but unfortunately a number of other things have conspired to keep me very busy. This will continue next week, but the week after I'll be on vacation and should have plenty of time to look over Findegil's latest post. |
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#4 | |||||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Well, after many days of reviewing and re-familiarizing myself with the text, the different versions, as well as the many many MANY layers of discussion about the same few paragraphs, I have organized my thoughts. Honestly, before reading Fin's last post, I had MANY more comments, but I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal, as it solves nearly (if not) all of Aiwendil's objections, while maintaining all of the essential essences of Tolkien's proposed changes from MT VI. Nonetheless, I have several, mostly minor stylistic or organizational suggestions, as well as various comments for other points in the chapter. Everything I do not specifically mention I agree to.
CE-EX-01: There is a portion of LT I think we can take up in the beginning here: Quote:
CE-EX-03.2/03.3: Again, another small inclusion from the Lost Tales to add some color to Varda's making of the Stars: Quote:
Quote:
CE-EX-27: I do not know why the use of 'Eldar' is problematic here. Just before this, we have this: Quote:
CE-SL-11.5c: I would change the sentence very slightly: Quote:
CE-EX-28.4: As to the question of these words' validity in later Quenya, it is complex. Vorotemnar seems to be voro - "ever, always" and some derivative of the early "qenya" root ᴱ√TEME - 'to bind, to tie." However, another root was later given this same meaning in Quenya: ᴹ√NUT. In the text Tolkien says "Vorotemnar that bind forever" so if we take it to mean (literally) "ever-binding" we can use Voronutalë. As for Ilterendi, this is much less clear. All we can guess at its meaning is that it likely came from the early Qenya root ᴱ√YḶTḶ meaning "to yoke, join." From this qenya yalta "yoke", and Gnomish ilt- "to yoke, join." This seems to have been replaced by another root much later ᴹ√YAN "join" from which we get words like Quenya yanta "bridge." The (er)endi portion of the word is obscure to me. The text explains that the meaning signifies "they may not be filed or cleft." However, I do not see how this meaning can be gleaned from this word. Any replacement name we give them would be entirely invented on our part, but the name as it is cannot be said to be accurate Quenya. CE-EX-35.1: I added a marker here for the discussion of Falman and Vailimo. I will do my best to lay out the linguistics of it. Falman is derived from the early version of the later root √PHAL - "foam, splash' as in falas and other words having to do with the shore. Specifically there exists the word Falma for 'crested wave' in later Quenya, which has been a word for a long time. The nominal ending -on is a common masculine name ending, and I believe Falman is simply an early version using -an instead of -on. Therefore I would keep the name, but change it to Falmon instead. As to Vailimo this is meant to be a title in the same vein as Súlimo, being a royal-type masculine suffix (-mo. Vai was Tolkien's old name for the Outer Ocean, which later became Vaiya and even later Ekkaia(Eccaia). I do not know if Eccaia replaced Vaiya or not, as both as still valid Quenya words with different etymologies, but from these we can get Vaiyamo or Eccaiamo as the updated title of Ulmo. Either should be fine, but I personally prefer Vaiyamo as it remains closer to the original and accords with it in meaning. Hopefully that made some sense! ![]() CE-EX-36.5: This passage from the Grey Annals seems worth including, and indeed I suggested so earlier in the thread, but it undoubtedly got lost in the many revisions. Anyway, here seems the best place to put it: Quote:
CE-EX-46b: I do not think this speech from Makar quite works put into the mouth of Melkor. It feels too 'cheeky' from him when he is meant to be enraged/humbled/despondent/plotting all at once. I think it is best to leave this dialogue out. CE-SL-15.2: I found a small addition from AAm which we can put here: Quote:
CE-EX-48: Tuivána is still a valid name for Vana, although it only appears in the Lost Tales. However, the Quenya is still good. CE-EX-49: See my above comments for CE-EX-01.5 but I think the inclusion of these references is worth keeping. CE-EX-50: I agree with Aiwendil that the references to Mandos and Nienna must be removed completely, but I think the dialogue we here attribute to Ulmo must go as well, as it completely goes against his character, as it was originally said by Makar: Quote:
CE-EX-52b: I agree to the new placement suggested, but I also found an inclusion we can take from the Lost Tales: Quote:
I think we are nearly to the end of this chapter! It has been quite a hard, long, and heated process, but I really do think that this chapter is becoming far better than it was before thanks to all of our work together. I look forward to hearing from you both! Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-21-2021 at 04:43 PM. |
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#5 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I haven't had time to review the latest posts in detail (and will have to wait until probably next Saturday to do so) but I wanted to pop in to comment on one thing.
Findegil wrote: Quote:
I realize that this is somewhat tangential to the main thrust of your proposal, and again, I'm looking forward to reviewing that when I can, but I just wanted to comment on this one point. |
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#6 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Quote:
Reading further howmany of your suggestions have not yet found my working copy, I have some doubts about my talent as a text keeper. For execuse I can only bring forward that the chapter is still work in progress and that before prepare a text for an update in the forum, I check all the discussion. But still it is doubtfull if I would have catched them all. In short I am glad you made that review and reminded me! CE-EX-01.5: I like that addition, even so it is not clear what spirits are meant (as it shuold not be for sure) we have later examples as you mention. CE-EX-03.2 & CE-EX-03.3: I agree to these addition as well. Even so we might suspect that it is more legendary than a real description of Varda at work. (I personanly find it very sad, that Christopher Tolkien did cut out the actual smithing of the sun-ship by Aulë in LT.) CE-EX-03.5: Good catch! How did that got lost? May be at one point we thought of including Telimektar, who was to become that configuration of stars, but I can't remember. CE-EX-26: It is good to have your input in all these linguistical questions! Utúlieltë it will be and I corrected as well the answer tu utúlier. CE-EX-27: The idea behind the change was that none of the Valar could have know that name, since up to that time Oromë had it given to the Quendi when he was alone with them. But in the end the communication of the Valar might be always in more than level (verbal and mental) and therefore it might be obvious to the other Valar and Maiar what he meant. Or we might asume your explanation of transfered texts. CE-SL-11.5c: I agree to your change. But it will be CE-SL-11.5d then. CE-EX-28.2: I do not see how you landed at Tulcal. In the original we have Qenya Tambe, Ilsa, Latunken, Kanu, Anga, Laure => Tilkal. Now this would in Quenya change to Urus, Tyelpë, Latúcen, Canu, Anga, Culu => Uilcac Even if we change the order (wish I am hesistant about) we have only one L and thus can't build Tulcal. CE-EX-28.4: I can't help much in this questions, but with yoked/joined as on element the other element must mean some thing like everlasting. Sad as it is, it seems to me that if we do not find beter solution for the lingustical riddels, we have to eliminat all 3 names. CE-EX-35.1: I have nothing to add to Falman => Falmon. But to Valimo => Vaiyamo: Vaiya we considered still valid when we discussed Ambarcanta. There we have still the concept of Vaiya being more like water below and more like air above the earth. And we are told that the more sea-like part is called Ekkaia. But in the next sentence we are told: 'In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo.' Thus Vaiyamo seems fully justified. CE-EX-35.1: I agree to includ this passage, but I think it has to come a bit earlier: Quote:
CE-EX-46.5: I missed not only that passage but as well the sentence before it: 'There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe.' Thus as a fact that I missed in AAm which is the last version before MT VI we have Melkor sue for pardon twice: first at the council after the War of Powers and a second time after his 3 ages of imprisonment. This does render my first attemp, that I mentioned at the begining of my last post possible. I will give it below as far as necessary to show its differences and discuss its pros and cons. As for this version this is a good addition where ArcusCalion put it. CE-EX-39.1: Not explicitly contradicted but, ArcusCalion is right we have to change this: Quote:
CE-EX-52.5: Good find! I agree to its inclusion. CE-EX-58.3 & CE-EX-67: I agree that with Q&E given in volume 3 in full, this both this passages should be removed here. Aiwendil, I have read your post as well, even so you posted it while I worked on my again overlong posting. You might be right and I rejected that way out anyway. But as mentioned in the discussion of CE-EX-46.5 the dilemma was anyhow not there because AAm has Melkor sue for pardon twice and the first time during the council we discuss here, which I missed. So I give here as an alternative the view changes that were different in that draft I had made first: Quote:
Respectfully, Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-24-2021 at 05:53 AM. |
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#7 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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To all Fin's replies to my points I agree.
CE-EX-28.2: I realized that myself, and went back to edit my post. Malta is another valid late Quenya word for gold. Culu is later said to be more red-gold, and Malta yellow-gold. Either works here I think, and having an M will be easier. So that gives us T, M, U, L, C, A. This can make Tulcam which I think works. I think it is worth keeping this word. |
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