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Old 08-17-2021, 06:44 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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Findegil, your updated version would be very helpful, if you still have my email.

As for Notes on Motives, I will email you what I have.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-17-2021 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 08-20-2021, 09:02 AM   #2
Findegil
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As I made a kind of connected / parallel editing of the account of the War of Powers and its aftermath here and in Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion, it does not make any sense to withhold the result here. Sorry Aiwendil if this renders some of your effort useless. To your relieve you will find as good as nothing added from MT. But you might still have some Frankenstein-feeling since the amount of LT material has been ‘enhanced’. But I think it should be bearable.
As a matter of fact I tried first to stick to Aiwendil’s story line as given in my post and when I produced the draft text, I was very optimistic about its success, and posted the draft for Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion. But when I wrote in the remark about my editing CE-EX-39.1 my hope nearly fell to despair. That fatal comment read originally thus (see specially the underlined part):
Quote:
In LT there has never been a second trial. Melkor did never sue for pardon, the doom was set and Melkor was handled accordingly, his time of punishment was only somewhat shortened due to the Valar’s joy about the coming of the Elves. In the later versions Melkor sues for pardon only after his imprisonment. But in MT VI we have him now sue for pardon much earlier (in the original text already in Utumno, in our version at the council of his doom – I think this the most critical fact about this editing: by setting the suing for pardon at this place we create a fact in Middle-earth without any hint that Tolkien meant it to be so). But MT VI says at the end that ‘The rest of the story, with Melkor's release … can then proceed more or less as already told.’ As we have no more specific information what Tolkien meant with the ‘more or less’, principal 2b forces us to go with a second trial and Melkor suing for pardon twice.
But I am not more easily daunted by such issues as Manwë is by Melkor’s gaze! The first way out of this dilemma I thought about comes from these passages from MT VII and UT, Istari: ‘He[ Manwë], like Melkor, practically never is seen or heard of outside or far away from his own halls and permanent residence.’ ‘Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.’ At least the UT text is seemingly later than every text we work with here including MT VI. Taken to be literary truth that would mean Manwë is completely out of the campaign against Utumno and thus the first possible meeting of Manwë and Melkor is at council. But in that way we would sacrifice a lot:
- It seems strange to me if Manwë first orders the war against Melkor and then stays home, but in the end that is what Denethor would call the duty of a wise ruler.
- We never see Manwë stepping upon the blue chariot and wielding the bow that fired gusts of wind nor the sword of lightning to slay the Balrogs.
- The Balrogs can assail ‘the standard of Manwë’, but can they be ‘withered by the wind of his wrath’ when he is far away at the Mountain of Taniquetil? Probably yes, figuratively, but it is a stretch.
- All conversation with Manwë before the gate must be given to someone else or skipped.
At that point in my thought, I decided against Aiwendil’s Story line and remembered one of our best friends in editing: ambiguity.
The text that follows tries to combine both AAm/LQ story line and MT VI story line with both nearly unchanged. And since the plan is now to have MT VI as a whole, it should not be used (much) here and thus avoid the Frankenstein-effect.
The basic idea is the following: Change the text here in a way that Manwë and Melkor meet only after Melkor is bound and hint only at Manwë’s reaction to it as given in full in MT VI. Change MT VI so that Melkor is defeated by Tulkas and bound but than meets Manwë still at Utumno and sues for pardon right there. The changes necessary to MT VI will be discussed in the thread Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion.
Since the text is heavily edited, it makes no sense to reduce the text and I give it in full. Remarks on my editing will follow the text.
Quote:
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows{ of Melkor}.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.} CE-EX-28b <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named CE-EX-28.2{therefore }tilkal,{[Footnote to the text: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the {'magic'}[poetic] names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilkal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilkal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named {Angaino}[Angainor] CE-EX-28.4, the oppressor, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind for ever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft.>CE-EX-28.6
{§21 }But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North CE-SL-12.1{ and make an end}. CE-EX-30 <LT Now as Aulë smithied the {Gods}[Valar] arrayed themselves in armour, CE-EX-31{ which they had of Makar, and he was fain to see them} putting on weapons and going as to warCE-EX-32{, howso their wrath be directed against Melko}. But when the great {Gods}[Valar] and all their folk were armed, then Manwë climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Oromë's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. CE-EX-33{Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore}[Eönwë] who was his herald ran before; but Oromë rode alone upon CE-EX-34{a chestnut}[Nahar his] horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. CE-EX-35{Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. }There rode the {Fanturi}[Fëanturi] upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lóriën, and Salmar {and Omar }came behind running speedily, but Aulë who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk.
Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches. Thus was it that the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. CE-EX-35.5b{In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. }CE-SL-13{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him.}CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into CE-EX-37c <LT {There in }the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] , there they came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not{, but Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade Melko come forth}.>{the far North and}Thus began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100
§49 }That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.
{ 1099
§50 }It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken CE-EX-37d <LT , when{Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but} Oromë alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manwë raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Melkor] come forth. CE-EX-38.1cBut though deep down within those halls {Melko}[Melkor] heard him and was in doubt, he would still not come>. Therefore Utumos CE-EX-37.5b{ and its} halls [h]were [/u]unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>

CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4c<LT{Then the Valar}Therefore Eönwë laid aside {their}[his] weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5c{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now they follow Manwë and his }then Tulkas followed Manwë’s herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> CE-EX-38.51<AAm Then, since he was but one against many, Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him>CE-EX-38.52<LT and {thereupon }Tulkas smote {Melko}[Melkor] full in his teeth with his fist of iron, and he {and Aulë }grappled with him, and straight he was wrapped thirty times in the fathoms of {Angaino}[Angainor].
Then said {Orome}[Eönwë]: "Would that he might be slain" – and it would have been well indeed, but the {great Gods}[Valar] may not yet be slain. Now {is}was {Melko}[Melkor] held in dire bondage and beaten to his knees CE-EX-38.53 , and he {is}was constrained to command all his vassalage that they molest not the Valar - and indeed the most of these, affrighted at the binding of their lord, fled away to the darkest places.
Tulkas indeed dragged {Melko}[Melkor] out before the gates, and there Aulë set upon each wrist one of the Vorotemnar and upon each ankle twain of the Ilterendi, and tilkal went red at the touch of {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.54, and those bands have never since been loosened from his hands and feet. Then the chain {is}was smithied to each of these. CE-EX-46.5b<AAm And Melkor sued for pardon at the feet of Manwë, and humbled himself, and swore to abide his rule, and to aid the Valar in all ways that he could, for the good of Arda, and the profit of Valar and of Eldar, if so he should be granted freedom, and a place as the least of all the folk of Valinor.> CE-EX-38.9c<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.> CE-EX-38.55b{ and}But {Melko}[Melkor] {borne}was led thus helpless away.>
CE-EX-38.91c<LQ {Nonetheless the}The CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; CE-EX-44d <LT thereforeTulkas and Ulmo {break the gates of Utumna and pile}piled hills of stone upon {them}the broken gates of Utumno. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end>; and others were dispersed in the years of that strife and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour. CE-EX-44.1 <AAm Thus ended the first war of the West upon the North.>
CE-EX-45b <LT After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to {Valmar}[Valimar] by long ways and dark, guarding {Melko}[Melkor] every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage. His lip was split and his face has had a strange leer upon it since that buffet dealt him by TulkasCE-EX-45.1{, who even of policy could not endure to see the majesty of Manwë bow before the accursed one}.
Now {is }a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small{, lying bound} and before the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}spoke Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46b; yet {Makar still spake for him, although not warmly}[Melkor spoke for himself], for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!" Thereat arose {Palúrien}[Kementári] in sorrow and tears, and told of the plight of Earth and of the great beauty of her designs and of those things she desired dearly to bring forth; of all the wealth of flower and herbage, of tree and fruit and grain that the world might bear if it had but peace. ‘Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth’; but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14writhed in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15bunchained {Melko}[Melkor] and fought him then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness and {his}the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
Such was the doom of Manwë, and {even to Makar and Measse}[all the folk of Valinor] it seemed good, albeit Tulkas and {Palúrien}[Kementári] thought it merciful to peril.> CE-EX-47{and he}And Melkor was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16b{; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the fortress of Melkor at Utumno had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, and these the Valar did not all discover nor utterly destroy, and many evil things still lingered there; and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour.
§22 But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor bound hand and foot and blindfold, and he was cast} into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manwë, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast are those halls and strong, and they were built in the north of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [>}three{]} ages longCE-SL-18b{, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon.}<moved from above ; and the world had peace for a great age.> CE-EX-47.5 <LT Now {doth}did Valinor enter upon its greatest time of peace, and all the earth beside, while {Melko}[Melkor] bideth in the deepest vaults of Mandos and his heart {grows}growed black within him.{
}Behold the tumults of the sea {abate}abated slowly, and the fires beneath the mountains {die}died; the earth {quakes}quaked no more and the fierceness of the cold and the stubbornness of the hills and rivers of ice {is}was melted to the uttermost North and to the deepest South{, even to the regions about Ringil and Helkar}.>
I know that the numbering of the changes has become mess by now, but it seems inescapable when shifting around passages from different texts in the way we did.
CE-SL-11.5cCE-SL-13 & CE-EX-28bCE-EX-38.2b & CE-EX-39g: I think, these changes have already been agreed upon.
CE-EX-38.3: Even if we discussed this before, I may add here that it seems important to me to show Manwë’s reluctance even during the campaign.
CE-EX-38.4c & CE-EX-38.5c: Now only Eönwë and Tulkas enter Utumno to allow Manwë meet Melkor only after the fight.
CE-EX-38.51: Here the real changes being. As desired I kept fight between Tulkas and Melkor. The version of AAm has the benefit of given an additional reason why it is Tulkas alone.
CE-EX-38.52: When we keep the fight, then I don’t see a good reason not to take up the details from LT. But of course we have to skip Aulë giving aid.
CE-EX-38.53: There is here no change, but the question is if we consider that there is still vassalage to be commanded.
CE-EX-38.54: The question here is of course if we can still say, that Melkor form that moment in history wore the Vorotemnar and Ilterendi for ever. In LT that was no question, since he never after gave up his bodily form. But in later versions (that we follow) he escapes from Valinor by going first north than giving up bodily form and going south to meet Ungoliant.
Nonetheless I think he can be said to wear them. My reason is that these fetters have to have some verry special properties to bind an ealar. And we have an example of a physical object ‘transported’ by an ‘unhoused’ ealar: Sauron lost his body during the drowning of Númenor, but he caried the One Ring back to Middle-earth. For sure Sauron did that by his own free will and desire, but still I think with the special properties mentioned above Melkor could have been forced to carry the fetters along even when ‘unhoused’.
CE-EX-46.5b: The strange numbering of this and the next change are due to my first editing. I think this is the ideal place to put Melkor’s suing and implicitly the trembling moment of realisation. That the full implication of this moment is only understood afterwards when reading the analysis of MT VI in volume 3 is a virtue and not a buck: reading the text here as it stands, the reader can still hope with Manwë that Melkor really repented and was only driven away from it by the harsh doom that Manwë had to announce to satisfy the other Valar.
I took Melkor’s suing not from MT VI, because I wanted that text be stay intact. Instead it comes from the telling of the council that granted Melkor freedom after the imprisonment in Mandos as told in AAm. Up to now we used in our version telling about that later council the text from LQ which differs slightly. If we in the end use the text from AAm for that later council we will exchange this passage with the LQ text, to avoid exact same wording.
For the necessity for Melkor to sue twice see the discussion about CE-EX-39.1 below.
CE-EX-38.9c: The passage comes from a totally different place in LT, but if we want to use MT VI completely at a later point, than we cannot butcher it to pieces to form our text here. And we needed some text here to make the plot in MT VI work: Manwë must be shown to be driven by the demand of the assembly to a harsher doom than what he would have preferred (and Melkor expected).
CE-EX-38.55b: Here we have a second concession to enable my edit of MT VI to work: Melkor must be able to kneel before Manwë not lay all the time prostrated before his feet. And if he can kneel down, he can walk by himself and must not be ‘borne’. When at first he was just ‘warped around’ with Angainor, it is clear that Tulkas has to drag him out of the pits of Utumno. But now he is bound by the fetters and the chain and done in a usual way a prisoner bound thus can stand, sit down, lay down or kneel down (on both knees and he might have difficulties to come up again) and walk by his own but he cannot run. You can of course bind down prisoner with fetters and a chain more restrictive as exemplified on Morgoth after the War of Wrath, but I do see a necessity here for more movement possibilities, which at least seem plausible.
CE-EX-38.91c & CE-SL-17 & CE-EX-44d: These are nearly unchanged from my last version. They explain why there was some remains of Angband usable later and how Utumno was closed for Melkor for ever. In addition they give some worthwhile information about Melkors creatures either reassembled later or found in strange places like the door-warden in the lake at the west gate of Moria.
CE-EX-44.1: I found this a worthwhile addition from AAm.
CE-EX-45b: I extended this passage to include the leer upon Melkor’s face. If we take up the fight than its result should also be included. Again the question must be answered why Melkor could not ‘remove’ that leer when he build up a new body. (When he is later injured by Fingolfin and Thorondor, he is permanently incarnated as Morogth, so that limping and scars naturally remained.) But it seems that the ealar when housed in a body could not avoid to take some of the damage done to that body to have lasting effect. We have again Sauron as prominent example: First he drips blood after he was realised by Huan even so he had shape-shifted, and more important he had still only nine fingers when he tortured Gollum even so he had to rebuild that body longer after his defeat by the last alliance.
CE-EX-45.1: This reason for the fight from LT has to go.
CE-EX-46b: I gave Makar’s speech for Melkor’s case to Melkor himself. He seems the only one fit for putting same value into strife and conflict. And we must assume that he was allowed to speak in defence of his case.
CE-SL-14: This was agreed upon already.
CE-SL-15b: This we had changed when Melkor was chained, but now since he is bound by Angainor it can stand unchanged.
CE-EX-39f: This is actually the only phrase taken from MT and its inclusion serves the same reason as explained in the discussion of CE-EX-38.9c above.
CE-EX-39.1: In LT there has never been a second trial. Melkor did never sue for pardon, the doom was set and Melkor was handled accordingly, his time of punishment was only somewhat shortened due to the Valar’s joy about the coming of the Elves. In the later versions Melkor sues for pardon only after his imprisonment. But in MT VI we have him now sue for pardon much earlier. But MT VI says at the end that ‘The rest of the story, with Melkor's release … can then proceed more or less as already told.’ As we have no more specific information what Tolkien meant with the ‘more or less’, principal 2b forces us to go with a second trial and Melkor suing for pardon twice.
CE-EX-47 & CE-SL-16b: These are the remains of our basic text edited to a usable form. Part of it was used earlier.
CE-SL-18b: The original passage was as well used earlier, so it has to be removed here. And the passage inserted comes only from a few sentences above and might be a bit redundant.
CE-EX-47.5: The description of Melkor’s reaction to the doom and the peace that followed after his imprisonment are most detailed in LT and therefore taken up here.

Respectfully,
Findegil
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Old 08-20-2021, 03:30 PM   #3
Aiwendil
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Great to see you, ArcusCalion!

I had done some work on a new version along the lines of my proposal, but unfortunately a number of other things have conspired to keep me very busy. This will continue next week, but the week after I'll be on vacation and should have plenty of time to look over Findegil's latest post.
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Old 08-20-2021, 09:28 PM   #4
ArcusCalion
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Well, after many days of reviewing and re-familiarizing myself with the text, the different versions, as well as the many many MANY layers of discussion about the same few paragraphs, I have organized my thoughts. Honestly, before reading Fin's last post, I had MANY more comments, but I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal, as it solves nearly (if not) all of Aiwendil's objections, while maintaining all of the essential essences of Tolkien's proposed changes from MT VI. Nonetheless, I have several, mostly minor stylistic or organizational suggestions, as well as various comments for other points in the chapter. Everything I do not specifically mention I agree to.

CE-EX-01: There is a portion of LT I think we can take up in the beginning here:
Quote:
But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
CE-EX-01.5 <Lost Tales
At that time did many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in. Some came from Mandos, aged spirits that journeyed from Ilúvatar with him who are older than the world and very gloomy and secret, and some from the fortresses of the North where {Melko}[Melkor] then dwelt in the deep dungeons of {Utumna}[Utumno]. Full of evil and unwholesome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before. But some few danced thither with gentle feet exuding evening scents, and these came from the gardens of Lóriën.
Still is the world full of these in the days of light, lingering alone in shadowy hearts of primeval forests, calling secret things across a starry waste, and haunting caverns in the hills that few have found: — but the pinewoods are yet too full of these old {unelfin}[un-Elven] and inhuman spirits for the quietude of Eldar or of Men.>
That there are spirits living in the world during later days is a known fact (Goldberry the 'River's Daughter') as well as the myriad of speaking creatures in Tolkien's later writing. While it's true he makes no specific mention of these beings later on, I do not think their existence is contradicted, and I think it worthwhile to include them here.

CE-EX-03.2/03.3: Again, another small inclusion from the Lost Tales to add some color to Varda's making of the Stars:
Quote:
.... by the Elves Elentári, the Queen of the Stars.
CE-EX-03.2 <LT {and}She fared upon her wings of speed, and set stars about the firmament in very great profusion, so that the skies grew marvelously fair and their glory was doubled; and those stars that she then fashioned have a power of slumbers, for the silver of their bodies came of the treasury of Lóriën and their radiance had lain in {Telimpe}[Silindirin] long time in his garden.> Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, CE-EX-03.3 <LT and {that} Morwinyon who blazes above the world's edge in the west was dropped by her as she fared in great haste back to Valinor.> {and}And other of her works ......
CE-EX-03.4/03.5: In the many cuts and pastes and rewrites to the text, I have this passage marked with the marker CE-EX-03 but that has already been used for the addition to the first paragraph. So I will label this marker CE-EX-03.4 and I wished to include a bit of LQ as it adds a nice detail and names a star not elsewhere named:
Quote:
CE-EX-03.4 <AAm{§37} In that hour, it is said, CE-EX-03.5 <LQ when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world,> the Quendi, the Elder .....
CE-EX-26: The correct elvish should be Utúlieltë! Utúlieltë, so you were nearly right Aiwendil. I had mentioned this in one of my previous posts before Aiwendil proposed his own draft, but with all the developments of the chapter it is easy for such things to get lost.

CE-EX-27: I do not know why the use of 'Eldar' is problematic here. Just before this, we have this:
Quote:
Themselves {they}the Elves named the Quendi CE-SL-10 {, whom we call Elves (quoth Ælfwine)}; but Oromë named them in their own tongue Eldar, people of the stars, .....
and directly after this change we have the folk of the Valar saying "I Eldar-tulier". Thus I think we should not change "Eldar" to "First-born. We have plenty of usage of Elvish words by the Valar before they met the Elves, so I think such idiosyncrasies can be chocked up to the fact that the Valar were likely in reality speaking Valarin, but the Elves recorded it in Elvish, and (for the purposes of our project) Bilbo left it in for flavor (much like Tolkien would have done).

CE-SL-11.5c: I would change the sentence very slightly:
Quote:
... that we should CE-SL-11.5c{take up again the mastery of Arda, }<AAm make war upon Melkor> at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from {the}his shadows{ of Melkor}.'
CE-EX-28.2: Now to the question of Tilkal. I think we must address the etymology of the word, as simply deleting the footnote does not answer the question of its validity. Personally, I think Tolkien is being very deliberate here with this metal. I do not know how much any of you are familiar with alchemy/occultism, but the metals Tolkien cites here are 6 of the 7 metals associated with the planets, the days of the week, and various angels. Lead, Tin, Copper, Silver, Gold, Iron, and Tilkal the last (in occultism/alchemy the seventh is mercury). That Tolkien also deliberately made names for the planets which correspond to these metals (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun and Moon) seems also no coincidence. Therefore, I think the odd etymology of the word is deliberate, and meant to invoke an alchemical/magical property of the metal itself. Therefore I think its inclusion and updating are worth doing. The later word for 'copper' is given as Urus, lead and tin are never given elsewhere, but these words fit well into later quenya phonology, and so may be accepted (Latúcen and Canu) and Anga for iron remains the same. Aiwendil is correct, however, that Laurë and Ilsa (later Silmë) are in later Quenya specifically words for light. However, we can simply use the name of the metal (Culu or Malta for gold and Tyelpë for silver). This gives us the letters U, L, C, A, T, and a C or M. Putting these together can give us the acronym Tulcam which is nearly identical, and I think worth using instead of tilkal, and we may update the elvish in the footnote accordingly.

CE-EX-28.4: As to the question of these words' validity in later Quenya, it is complex. Vorotemnar seems to be voro - "ever, always" and some derivative of the early "qenya" root ᴱ√TEME - 'to bind, to tie." However, another root was later given this same meaning in Quenya: ᴹ√NUT. In the text Tolkien says "Vorotemnar that bind forever" so if we take it to mean (literally) "ever-binding" we can use Voronutalë. As for Ilterendi, this is much less clear. All we can guess at its meaning is that it likely came from the early Qenya root ᴱ√YḶTḶ meaning "to yoke, join." From this qenya yalta "yoke", and Gnomish ilt- "to yoke, join." This seems to have been replaced by another root much later ᴹ√YAN "join" from which we get words like Quenya yanta "bridge." The (er)endi portion of the word is obscure to me. The text explains that the meaning signifies "they may not be filed or cleft." However, I do not see how this meaning can be gleaned from this word. Any replacement name we give them would be entirely invented on our part, but the name as it is cannot be said to be accurate Quenya.

CE-EX-35.1: I added a marker here for the discussion of Falman and Vailimo. I will do my best to lay out the linguistics of it. Falman is derived from the early version of the later root √PHAL - "foam, splash' as in falas and other words having to do with the shore. Specifically there exists the word Falma for 'crested wave' in later Quenya, which has been a word for a long time. The nominal ending -on is a common masculine name ending, and I believe Falman is simply an early version using -an instead of -on. Therefore I would keep the name, but change it to Falmon instead. As to Vailimo this is meant to be a title in the same vein as Súlimo, being a royal-type masculine suffix (-mo. Vai was Tolkien's old name for the Outer Ocean, which later became Vaiya and even later Ekkaia(Eccaia). I do not know if Eccaia replaced Vaiya or not, as both as still valid Quenya words with different etymologies, but from these we can get Vaiyamo or Eccaiamo as the updated title of Ulmo. Either should be fine, but I personally prefer Vaiyamo as it remains closer to the original and accords with it in meaning. Hopefully that made some sense!

CE-EX-36.5: This passage from the Grey Annals seems worth including, and indeed I suggested so earlier in the thread, but it undoubtedly got lost in the many revisions. Anyway, here seems the best place to put it:
Quote:
CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. CE-EX-36.2 <GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But after two years the Valar passed into ....
Now we come to the stuff which Fin has done a marvelous job fixing up. I must say, I am very impressed. Just a few things.

CE-EX-46b: I do not think this speech from Makar quite works put into the mouth of Melkor. It feels too 'cheeky' from him when he is meant to be enraged/humbled/despondent/plotting all at once. I think it is best to leave this dialogue out.

CE-SL-15.2: I found a small addition from AAm which we can put here:
Quote:
..... rather than making high debate of them. CE-EX-46.5 <AAm [Indeed] it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.> Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved .....
CE-EX-39.1: I am somewhat confused by the inclusion of the bit about dwelling as a servant in the house of Tulkas. Maybe I am forgetting something, but is this contradicting anything in the later text?

CE-EX-48: Tuivána is still a valid name for Vana, although it only appears in the Lost Tales. However, the Quenya is still good.

CE-EX-49: See my above comments for CE-EX-01.5 but I think the inclusion of these references is worth keeping.

CE-EX-50: I agree with Aiwendil that the references to Mandos and Nienna must be removed completely, but I think the dialogue we here attribute to Ulmo must go as well, as it completely goes against his character, as it was originally said by Makar:
Quote:
... whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar {- ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and Mandos and Fui were cold to the Eldar as to all else}; yet was Varda vehement in support ....
CE-EX-51.1: I agree with Aiwendil to remove the reference to Ossë entirely.

CE-EX-52b: I agree to the new placement suggested, but I also found an inclusion we can take from the Lost Tales:
Quote:
CE-EX-52b <AAm {And }Oromë bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen].> CE-EX-52.5 <LT Now all the slopes of that valley and the bare margin of the lake, even the rugged fringes of the hills beyond, {be}were filled with a concourse of folk who gazed in wonder at the stars, and some {sing}sang already with voices that {are}were very beautiful. But {Nornore}[Oromë] stood upon a hill and was amazed for the beauty of that folk, and because he was a Vala they seemed to him marvelously small and delicate and their faces wistful and tender. Then did he speak in the great voice of the Valar and all those shining faces turned towards his voice.
‘Behold O Eldalië, desired are ye for all the age of twilight, and sought for throughout the ages of peace, and I come even from Manwë Súlimo Lord of the {Gods}[Valar] who abides upon Taniquetil in peace and wisdom to you who are the Children of Ilúvatar, and these are the words he put into my mouth to speak: {Let now some few of you come}Come back with me {— for am I not Nornore herald of the Valar —} and enter Valinor and speak with him, that he may learn of your coming and of all your desires.’>
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling ....
CE-EX-58.3: I think even this small addition Fin kept of the larger linguistic material from Quendi and the Eldar should be removed. It feels far too analytical, and it would fit better within its proper context of the discussion of the terminology of the different elvish groups in Volume 3. I also hesitate with CE-EX-67 but I will leave it in, as it is primarily not linguistic. However, CE-EX-75 does not need to be added, as it can be placed in context in Volume 3.

I think we are nearly to the end of this chapter! It has been quite a hard, long, and heated process, but I really do think that this chapter is becoming far better than it was before thanks to all of our work together. I look forward to hearing from you both!

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Old 08-21-2021, 01:32 PM   #5
Aiwendil
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I haven't had time to review the latest posts in detail (and will have to wait until probably next Saturday to do so) but I wanted to pop in to comment on one thing.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
The first way out of this dilemma I thought about comes from these passages from MT VII and UT, Istari: ‘He[ Manwë], like Melkor, practically never is seen or heard of outside or far away from his own halls and permanent residence.’ ‘Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.’ At least the UT text is seemingly later than every text we work with here including MT VI. Taken to be literary truth that would mean Manwë is completely out of the campaign against Utumno and thus the first possible meeting of Manwë and Melkor is at council.
I think you are misreading the context of that statement from UT. The point of view of those essays always seems to be that of the late Third Age, or at least, long after the First Age. It does not say "Manwe <i>did</i> not descend from the Mountain . . ."; it says "Manwe <i>will</i> not descend . . ." It is a statement about the future, not the past. To take this to mean that once his halls were built on Taniquetil, he never left them seems to me to be absurd, and I certainly don't think we should be editing texts to <i>remove</i> him from the Battle of the Powers.

I realize that this is somewhat tangential to the main thrust of your proposal, and again, I'm looking forward to reviewing that when I can, but I just wanted to comment on this one point.
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Old 08-21-2021, 05:45 PM   #6
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I will give him a LOT of credit - this version he has created is very very near to ideal
Thank you for the flowers, but let me first see, what Aiwendil has to say, before I claim that I can still make a decent compromise-draft.
Reading further howmany of your suggestions have not yet found my working copy, I have some doubts about my talent as a text keeper. For execuse I can only bring forward that the chapter is still work in progress and that before prepare a text for an update in the forum, I check all the discussion. But still it is doubtfull if I would have catched them all. In short I am glad you made that review and reminded me!

CE-EX-01.5: I like that addition, even so it is not clear what spirits are meant (as it shuold not be for sure) we have later examples as you mention.

CE-EX-03.2 & CE-EX-03.3: I agree to these addition as well. Even so we might suspect that it is more legendary than a real description of Varda at work. (I personanly find it very sad, that Christopher Tolkien did cut out the actual smithing of the sun-ship by Aulë in LT.)

CE-EX-03.5: Good catch! How did that got lost? May be at one point we thought of including Telimektar, who was to become that configuration of stars, but I can't remember.

CE-EX-26: It is good to have your input in all these linguistical questions! Utúlieltë it will be and I corrected as well the answer tu utúlier.

CE-EX-27: The idea behind the change was that none of the Valar could have know that name, since up to that time Oromë had it given to the Quendi when he was alone with them. But in the end the communication of the Valar might be always in more than level (verbal and mental) and therefore it might be obvious to the other Valar and Maiar what he meant. Or we might asume your explanation of transfered texts.

CE-SL-11.5c: I agree to your change. But it will be CE-SL-11.5d then.

CE-EX-28.2: I do not see how you landed at Tulcal. In the original we have Qenya Tambe, Ilsa, Latunken, Kanu, Anga, Laure => Tilkal. Now this would in Quenya change to Urus, Tyelpë, Latúcen, Canu, Anga, Culu => Uilcac
Even if we change the order (wish I am hesistant about) we have only one L and thus can't build Tulcal.

CE-EX-28.4: I can't help much in this questions, but with yoked/joined as on element the other element must mean some thing like everlasting.

Sad as it is, it seems to me that if we do not find beter solution for the lingustical riddels, we have to eliminat all 3 names.

CE-EX-35.1: I have nothing to add to Falman => Falmon. But to Valimo => Vaiyamo: Vaiya we considered still valid when we discussed Ambarcanta. There we have still the concept of Vaiya being more like water below and more like air above the earth. And we are told that the more sea-like part is called Ekkaia. But in the next sentence we are told: 'In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo.' Thus Vaiyamo seems fully justified.


CE-EX-35.1: I agree to includ this passage, but I think it has to come a bit earlier:
Quote:
CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth CE-EX-36.2b{, and all that region was much broken}.<GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River {Celon}[Limhir]. There also dwelt her nightingales.> But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen]; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into ...
CE-EX-46: Well it was a trial. We can leave it out, which is the saver way.

CE-EX-46.5: I missed not only that passage but as well the sentence before it: 'There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe.' Thus as a fact that I missed in AAm which is the last version before MT VI we have Melkor sue for pardon twice: first at the council after the War of Powers and a second time after his 3 ages of imprisonment. This does render my first attemp, that I mentioned at the begining of my last post possible. I will give it below as far as necessary to show its differences and discuss its pros and cons.
As for this version this is a good addition where ArcusCalion put it.

CE-EX-39.1: Not explicitly contradicted but, ArcusCalion is right we have to change this:
Quote:
CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
CE-EX-48 - CE-EX-51.1: Agreed.

CE-EX-52.5: Good find! I agree to its inclusion.

CE-EX-58.3 & CE-EX-67: I agree that with Q&E given in volume 3 in full, this both this passages should be removed here.

Aiwendil, I have read your post as well, even so you posted it while I worked on my again overlong posting. You might be right and I rejected that way out anyway. But as mentioned in the discussion of CE-EX-46.5 the dilemma was anyhow not there because AAm has Melkor sue for pardon twice and the first time during the council we discuss here, which I missed. So I give here as an alternative the view changes that were different in that draft I had made first:
Quote:
CE-EX-39g<LT Then Manwë and Ulmo and all the {Gods}[Valar] were exceeding wroth{ at the subtlety and fawning insolence of his words}, and Tulkas would have started straightway raging down the narrow stairs that descended out of sight beyond the gates, but the others withheld him, and Aulë gave counsel that it was clear{ from Melko's words} that {he}[Melkor] was awake and wary{ in this matter, and it could most plainly be seen which of the Gods he was most in fear of and desired least to see standing in his halls} - "therefore," said he, "let us devise how {these twain}we may come upon him CE-EX-38.2b{ unawares and how fear may perchance drive him into betterment of ways}." To this Manwë assented, saying that all their force might scarce dig {Melko}[Melkor] from his stronghold CE-EX-38.3{, whereas that deceit must be very cunningly woven that would ensnare the master of guile. "Only by his pride is Melko assailable," quoth Manwe, }" or by such a struggle as would rend the earth and bring evil upon us all," and Manwë sought to avoid all strife twixt Ainur and Ainur.>
CE-EX-38.4b<LT{Then}Therefore the Valar laid aside their weapons at the gates, setting however folk to guard them, CE-EX-38.5c{and placed the chain Angaino about the neck and arms of Tulkas, and even he might scarce support its great weight alone;} and {now}then they {follow Manwë and his}followed Manwë’s herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> CE-EX-38.51<AAm Then, since he was but one against many, Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him>CE-EX-38.52<LT and {thereupon }Tulkas smote {Melko}[Melkor] full in his teeth with his fist of iron, and he {and Aulë }grappled with him, and straight he was wrapped thirty times in the fathoms of {Angaino}[Angainor].
Then said Orome: "Would that he might be slain" – and it would have been well indeed, but the {great Gods}[Valar] may not yet be slain. Now {is}was {Melko}[Melkor] held in dire bondage and beaten to his knees CE-EX-38.53 , and he {is}was constrained to command all his vassalage that they molest not the Valar -- and indeed the most of these, affrighted at the binding of their lord, fled away to the darkest places.
Tulkas indeed dragged {Melko}[Melkor] out before the gates, and there Aulë set upon each wrist one of the Vorotemnar and upon each ankle twain of the Ilterendi, and tilkal went red at the touch of {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.54, and those bands have never since been loosened from his hands and feet. Then the chain {is}was smithied to each of these and {Melko}[Melkor] CE-EX-38.55{borne}[led] thus helpless away.>
CE-EX-38.91b<LQ {Nonetheless}But the CE-SL-17{fortress}fortresses of Melkor at Utumno and Angband had many mighty vaults and caverns …

Now Aulë mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lóriën held their peace, nor do they ever speak much at the councils of the Valar or indeed at other times, but Tulkas arose angrily from the midst of the assembly and went from among them, for he could not endure parleying where he thought the guilt to be clear. Liever would he have CE-SL-15bunchained {Melko}[Melkor] and fought him then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, giving him many a sore buffet in meed of his illdoings, rather than making high debate of them. Howbeit Manwë sate and listened and was moved by the speech of {Palúrien}[Kementári], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness. CE-EX-46.5b<AAm{There he lay upon his face}[Melkor kneeled] before the feet of Manwë, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwë. But{ his prayer was denied, and} it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. But death none can deal to any of the race of the Valar, neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Eä, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling.>
CE-EX-38.9b<LT In sooth Manwë hoped even to the end for peace and amity, and that the {Gods}[Valar] would at his bidding indeed have received {Melko}[Melkor] into Valinor under truce and pledges of friendship.> {and his}But the doom CE-EX-39f <MT; VI at the council> was this. For three ages during the displeasure of the {Gods}[Valar] should {Melko}[Melkor] be chained in a vault of Mandos by that chain {Angaino}[Angainor], CE-EX-39.1<LQ ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon >and thereafter {should}might he fare into the light of the Two Trees, but only so that he might for {four ages}[a time] yet dwell CE-EX-39.2{as a servant in the house of Tulkas, and obey him}<AAm for a while in a humble house in Valmar under vigilance> in requital of his ancient malice. "Thus," said Manwë, "and yet but hardly, mayst thou win favour again sufficient that the {Gods}[Valar] suffer thee to abide thereafter in an house of thine own and to have some slight estate among them as befitteth a Vala and a lord of the Ainur."
The pro of this version is that the defeat of Melkor by Tulkas is some time gone by before he meets Manwë at the council. But the con is that it forces us to make changes in the story line of MT VI. In the end we might even let Melkor sue for pardon thrice.

Respectfully,
Findegil

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Old 08-23-2021, 06:08 AM   #7
ArcusCalion
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To all Fin's replies to my points I agree.

CE-EX-28.2: I realized that myself, and went back to edit my post. Malta is another valid late Quenya word for gold. Culu is later said to be more red-gold, and Malta yellow-gold. Either works here I think, and having an M will be easier. So that gives us T, M, U, L, C, A. This can make Tulcam which I think works. I think it is worth keeping this word.
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