4 Of the coming of the Elves

[Aiwendil]

CE-EX-28b: Perhaps "superficial" was the wrong word, but my point (which I think we agree on) is that while the story in LT resembles the MT story in some ways, it also differs from it in important ways.

CE-EX-28.2: Sorry, I think I misread the proposed edit and missed that the etymology was removed. I'd need to do a little research to decide whether tilkal is OK - I'm afraid my Quenya knowledge is not as deep as it once was!

CE-EX-28.4: No, what I meant was that I think these two names are good and we can keep them.

CE-EX-37.5: I don't necessarily think there is a contradiction, for the reasons you give - my point was only that, in any case, th statement about the halls being unroofed should not be deleted.

But to the main point, CE-EX-38.6b and following. I've taken a few days to think this over before replying, because it seems to be a real sticking point, and I'm not sure how to resolve it. Insofar as less of the text of MT VI intrudes here, I think it's an improvement. But the real crux of the issue for me, I think, is that no matter how we slice it, we inevitably have the critical moment of this story being narrated via a non-narrative text. It's a very jarring change in tone, and I'm afraid that the only way to avoid that would be to modify the text to the point where we're no longer editing Tolkien but rewriting him. To be honest, I'm even still a little bit uneasy about how much we're chopping up and adding in the LT, which also has a different tone, of course, from LQ and AAm, though in the end I think that that disparity is not great enough to warrant its wholesale exclusion. But when we add in MT text, especially to convey critical plot developments, it feels to me as if we've constructed Frankenstein's monster, an ungainly assemblage of pieces from obviously very different places sewn together.

And the thing is, I don't see the necessity of doing it that way. I suppose you could say it's incumbent on us to try, since MT is later than AAm, and since we can't really know that a change is unworkable unless we try to work it. But the conclusion I'm drawing from these attempts is that it is, in fact, to be classed as an unworkable projection.

So, I don't know. Left to my own devices, I certainly would not take up this particular element of MT VI, but the goal here is, of course, consensus. It seems that you feel pretty strongly in favour of incorporating this version of the story, so maybe you could explain why you see it as so worthwhile? Perhaps if I could see some real benefit to following MT in this instance, I would be willing to accept the scarring that this surgery is doing to the text, but as of now I just don't see it.

Thank you for the good wishes! Some friends have been infected with COVID, but none faired to badly. Now with summer coming along and the vaccination spreading more and more, the risk is abated a bit. I hope you and your family and friends have also come well through this difficult times!

Very glad to hear it! My friends and family have escaped it too. I tested positive back in February, but fortunately never developed any symptoms.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-26b: Okay.

CE-EX-28.2 & CE-EX-28.4: If you find some linguistical doubts about any of these names, we can edit them out.

CE-EX-37.5: Agreed, and my new version has it included.

CE-EX-38.6b and following: Good that you see an improvement, otherwise it would have been a bit of a disappointment 😊.

I suppose you could say it's incumbent on us to try, since MT is later than AAm, and since we can't really know that a change is unworkable unless we try to work it.

This is always an argument at the start of the editing, and as you might expect, I do not share your feeling that the text I created feels like a Frankenstein’s monster.

It seems that you feel pretty strongly in favour of incorporating this version of the story, so maybe you could explain why you see it as so worthwhile?

That is true, I would in this case rather skip all parts from LT than not using the story line of MT VI. But I fear that would not help get ride of your Frankenstein feeling. I tried to explain my reasons in the last post, but maybe it was too vague.

When ever Tolkien during his work on the Legendarium wrote at length about (e.g. LT, Laws and Customs) or analyzed (e.g. MT) the character of Manwe, the picture is that of a “thinker” rather than a “maker”. Manwe searches always for compromise not for conflict and avoids violence by all possible means. That picture does not come through in the shorter Sil77. There the focus is, somewhat naturally due to its shortness, on his actions: He gainsays Melkors claim for Arda in the beginning, he it is that resolves to attack Utumno and we assume that he send Eonwe to bring down Morgoth at the end of the first age.

In our editing we do in some places already include a kind differentiation, like Manwe’s reluctance against the hiding of Valinor or the story of his concourse with Manwe about elvish re-embodiment. But the analysis in MT VI does much more: It set him in a sharp contrast to Melkor and in that way reveals a lot about both characters. (By the way LT did the same, but with a different characterization of Melko as it stood at that time.) A similar argument could be made about Melkors characterization, but since he is a “maker”, he is much more in the focus of the story and we can learn much more about him by judging his actions. None the less are the directness of MT VI about Melkors “dispersing” and the immediacy in which it tells us about Melkors “trembling moment” unique.

That said it is clear (now) that we can not include that analysis in our main narrative. But there is still our famous Volume 3: THE LORE OF THE WISE. We could assume that we could include MT VI there, what ever we do with the storyline here, we “just” would have to edit it accordingly. But I think that will not work. Once Melkor is bound by Angainor, I do not see a chance for that reveling first encounter between Manwe and Melkor since ages nor for the trembling moment of near repentance of Melkor once Tulkas has stepped forward as champion of the Valar to fight him down.

I hope, I could make my motivation clearer this time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Thank you for explaining your reasoning. I certainly agree that, if possible, it would be nice to include as much of this elaboration of the characters of Manwe and Melkor as possible. I'm just not sure how much is possible.

It seems to me, though, that the more crucial point here is not so much Melkor's deceptive surrender at the climax of the battle as it is Manwe's inclination toward lenience and forgiveness. What if we were to keep the AAm/LQ narrative for the battle, with Melkor defeated and chained, but also keep the LT council where the Valar debate what to do with him? Then we would still have the strong characterization of Manwe as the seeker of reconciliation, but without having to rely on a sentence from MT to narrate a critical part of the story. We might even find it possible to touch up the LT council scene with bits from MT to suggest Melkor's feigned repentance at this point, and highlight Manwe's attempt at compromise. Thus, while rejecting the part of the MT story that contradicts AAm/LQ as an unimplementable projected change, we could use it to enrich the depiction of character and motive inherent in the earlier story. This would, in my opinion, do far less damage to Tolkien's texts than changing the whole story of the battle by splicing in sentences from MT.

I'd also note that I don't see the chaining of Melkor here as precluding the moment of realization by him and Manwe about his dispersal of power, nor the moment of near repentance. The only difference is that in this case, despite the realization, Melkor at first tries to fight anyway, and it is only after he is defeated that he has his trembling moment.

I wrote the above a week ago and intended to try my hand at editing the text in the way I suggest, but haven't had the time to sit down and do so. So I thought I might as well just post the suggestion so that you can think about the idea, and I'll try to provide a text to show what I have in mind later this week. Not sure if this idea is at all tenable for you, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Findegil]

Thank you for charring your thoughts. You may already anticipate that I will consider your idea only a second-best solution at best. But second best is sometimes what we have to accept for finding a consensus. And I am a professing combiner, so I am generally open for your idea.

But I have some doubts, that I may name here, for the sack of your editing process:
- The timing and setting of the moment of realization is critical: I think it is an important factor that it is first time meeting after the beginning of Arda. And I don’t see Melkor realize the real reason for his own shrinkage directly after a “physical” defeat by the hand of Tulkas. In such setting he would probably blame his weakness rather to that defeat than to his ‘dispersion’. I could accept that Manwe did not meet Melkor in person at or around Utumno, even if we can only tell that implicit. (we could at least use MK IV to mention that Melkor was led to Valinor at the end of the row, as anybody would assume that Manwe as leader of the homecoming victorious forces would be at the front.)
As you plan the moment of realization come at the council of the Valar that would decide about Melkor’s ‘doom’, I think we have to assume that he was led there not chained by Angainor. That item is at least for me more than a physical mean for chaining: It must have some mental binding characteristics to restrict one of the Valar (we have to take into account that it is still Melkor, who could by his own will leave the physical world behind, we are dealing with and not the later Morgoth who was bound to his physical body for good). Being chained by such an item would again weaken Melkor at least in his own perspective, and I at least have some problems to see him realize the real reason for his inability to daunt Manwe by his gaze while being bound by Angainor. Anyhow ‘knelling before Manwe’ seem improbable after he was ‘arraigned before all the {Vali}[Valar] great and small, lying bound before the silver chair of Manwë.’
But material to work with that issue is there, since MT IV states: ‘Then he … would have … burst out into flaming rebellion - but he is now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He cannot.’ I would not use that to explain before hand why Melkor was not bound at the council but if we can use it later at its proper place (when the ‘doom’ is set) it will explain it in retrospect.
- That said, if we can handle it, we should as well include Melkor’s accusing Manwe of being faithless.
- I can see that at the council the insertions from MT IV will break the action much less, but the gap in style is still there and may be even worth with the text formed out of LT and MT. So, for the sake of your own idea beware of the ‘Frankenstein’-effect! ;-)

Looking forward to reading you editing.
Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings after such a long absence! With the new Nature of Middle-earth book coming out in the next month, I have been thinking once again of this project, and realized I never caught up and reviewed Aiwendil's proposed version of this chapter, and have not taken into account any of your discussions on the matter since. As it has been quite some time since I partook in this project (several years!) my familiarity with the chapter is next to none. I will start from the beginning of the thread and try to gather my thoughts on all the changes, and hopefully share my thoughts on it soon. I just wanted to let everyone know that I am going to return before I embarked on that project. I look forward to continuing!

[Findegil]

Posted by ArcusCalion:

I look forward to continuing!

Me to! It is allway very welcome to have more oppioins in the discussions.

Welcome back.
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I have been trying to work my way through all of the developments, and I have to say, Aiwendil's changes are hard to track given the fundamental restructuring which comes from using a new base text. Could that new version with AAm as the base text be posted in the private forum for easier analysis? I don't have as much free time to restructure the text myself from scratch I'm afraid