The Man Who Bit a Fell-Beast

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

1) The plague began in the east, devastating the people of Rhun and knocking out Sauron's own army. That's fine if, as Boro says, you're happy to wait a few hundred years to take advantage!

You know I've been trying to think if Sauron did engineer the plague, with the intention of getting Gondor to withdraw their presence in Mordor, why would he start in Rhun, among the Men who later would swell his army size? Why not begin it in Gondor and Eriador, the populations he really wanted to effect? There are a few reasons I can think of...

1. Sauron didn't want to be outed at this early stage in his designs yet. Appendix B notes that in circa 1100 the Istari and Eldar believed the power that came to Dol Guldur was a Nazgul. TA 1636 the plague spreads through Gondor and if Sauron did engineer it, he still would be laying low and not wanted his enemies to know he's returned. Targeting Gondor first may have revealed Sauron was behind it before he wanted to be outed. Which leads to the 2nd reason...

2. Starting it in Rhun, would cement the growing hostilities between Rhun and Gondor, which would make them enemies for centuries. I can see Gondor blaming Rhun for where the plague originated (seeing how people have reacted to Covid-19 and thinking about Huey's post, the Gondorians of Telemnar's time could have been squawking "Rhunavirus-36!")

Gondor recently fought the kinstrife, so from Sauron's perspective there were already enemies from the South that would be ready to oppose Gondor. In his long-term designs, "let me start a plague in Rhun to spark hostilities and ensure that Rhun and Gondor aren't allies when I'm finally ready to start my war a thousand years later."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron didn't want to be outed at this early stage in his designs yet. Appendix B notes that in circa 1100 the Istari and Eldar believed the power that came to Dol Guldur was a Nazgul. TA 1636 the plague spreads through Gondor and if Sauron did engineer it, he still would be laying low and not wanted his enemies to know he's returned. Targeting Gondor first may have revealed Sauron was behind it before he wanted to be outed.

Somewhere in the books, there's a reference to Mordor originally being merely Sauron's westernmost stronghold, outside his original realms "in the East".
If that's the case, he would have returned to that area in exile, as it were. Therefore, releasing the plague from the direction of Rhûn was unavoidable. Gondor at that point believed Sauron had perished at the end of the Second Age, at any rate.
Obviously, he would have known that the Men under his sway were susceptible also, but I doubt he would have been much troubled by that. He knew open war with the West was a long time away, and he had plenty of time to rebuild an army.

[Formendacil]

A thought that has occurred to me on the "why didn't Sauron use plague again?" front--apart from the obviously double-edged swords points already mentioned--is a bit tangential.

Do we know when the Black Breath first started?

A quick visit to Tolkien Gateway and the Encyclopedia of Arda reveal that the articles on both are brief. Wracking my brains... I can't think of any instances of the Black Breath prior to the period around The Lord of the Rings. Now, it's probably a stretch to suggest that the Black Breath is a viral pathogen, given that it certainly seems to be more of a supernatural malady than a psysiological illness, but what if it didn't come about until sometime later in the Third Age?

I don't think it can be NEW as of the War of the Ring, since Aragorn knows how to treat it and my impression of "The Houses of Healing" is that its treatment with athelas--i.e. not just the Hands of the King--is something that Aragorn thinks a learned herbmaster ought to once have known.

So... if it's:

1. Post-the Great Plague
2. Associated with the Nazgûl
3. Far enough back that it's old lore
4. And better remembered in the North than Gondor

...then I think it might have been rolled out during Angmar's war with and destruction of Arnor.

This is entirely speculative, of course, but it does strike me as plausible that IF Sauron had a hand in the Great Plague that he MIGHT THEN have developed the Black Breath. Could he have looked out over the devastation of the Great Plague and (keying a little off Hui's imagery of an internally-divided Gondor) as well as the devastation of his own human realms and thought "well, that's a lot of carnage on my side... but I really like the internal division and fear this wrought on Gondor. I wonder if I could bottle that..."

The obvious place, then, to roll out "the Plague 2.0: the Supernatural Edition" is in Angmar. The Witch-king is his chief servant able to be a proxy in something supernatural and the war with Arnor achieves one of his major goals in the long game. Turns out, a limited, supernatural and directed plague that doesn't rebound on your own forces doesn't work as widely as a germ-driven plague--without a Nazgûl around, there's no transmission. Perhaps it plays a role in the fall of Fornost, but although it is part of the Nazgûl's dread effect thereafter, it's mostly a dead until unless Sauron can figure out how to "aerosolise" it.

He actually figures this out with the War of the Ring: the foremost purpose of the Wingéd Nazgûl seems, to me, to be able to spread the shadow of dread--i.e. the Black Breath--over Gondor's entire army. The benefit of providing an anti-Eagle strikeforce might have been an inspiration--and certainly helps defeat the "why didn't they take the Eagles?" arguemtn--and Sauron does make use of them as messengers, but the biggest martial use of them is clearly spreading dread at the siege of Minas Tirith.

Wild mass speculating... but not crazy, right?

[Boromir88]

Was the Steward, Boromir inflicted with the Black Breath? I recall the Appendices mentioning he suffered after a battle with the Witch-King and died before his time, shrunken/in pain? *goes to check*

Ahh..it's listed as a "Morgul-wound"

Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-King feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father.~Appendix A: The Stewards

Perhaps the Morgul-wound and Black Breath are similar in their effects, but a different method of transferal? Do you read "Morgul-wound" as Boromir was stabbed with a Morgul-blade or that it was just a wound caused by sorcery? Because it does seem different from Frodo's wound, in that it took 14 years for Boromir to succumb to the wound.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Now, it's probably a stretch to suggest that the Black Breath is a viral pathogen, given that it certainly seems to be more of a supernatural malady than a psysiological illness, but what if it didn't come about until sometime later in the Third Age?

The correctile dysfunction has flared up, and I want to say that while I do not think the Black Breath is a form of infectious pathogen, technically those symptoms could be caused by one. After all, there are also very physical "symptoms" of coma and death. If we're talking about viruses, then viral encephalopathy is on the table. There are parasitic infections like Sleeping Sickness. And prion diseases, which don't give these exact symptoms but are more like infectious rapid dementia, but are another form of "infecting" the brain. Can't think of a bacterial infection that would make you go to sleep and die without also giving prominent other symptoms, but it's not impossible.

Honestly though, I think that the Black Breath is indeed an illness of the will, putting it more in the realm of the psychological. And I thought Aragorn equally was able to rescue the victims not through a specific taught skill, but through his own willpower and its interaction with those around him. I think Faramir's passage in the Houses of Healing is what most supports that interpretation. Perhaps is was a passed down knowledge that a person who is able to feel another's soul or what have you with his own would be able to interact with it directly, but credit goes to Aragorn for being that man rather than just learning a forgotten skill.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Honestly though, I think that the Black Breath is indeed an illness of the will, putting it more in the realm of the psychological. And I thought Aragorn equally was able to rescue the victims not through a specific taught skill, but through his own willpower and its interaction with those around him. I think Faramir's passage in the Houses of Healing is what most supports that interpretation. Perhaps is was a passed down knowledge that a person who is able to feel another's soul or what have you with his own would be able to interact with it directly, but credit goes to Aragorn for being that man rather than just learning a forgotten skill.

Aragorn also had a kinship, very far removed, with the Master Healer himself, Elrond. I'm sure that was quite a bit of help.

[Boromir88]

Hmm..Aragorn believes that Merry was a victim of the Black Breath (in Bree) and yet seems to have escaped serious harm.

I agree that it seems to be a spiritual or psychological ill. As Merry was awoken from a disturbing dream, but I don't think suffered any other hurts from the Black Breath. Faramir's severe injuries come from multiple sources:

"Weariness, grief for his father's mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath," said Aragorn.
...
"Walk no more in the shadows, but awake!" said Aragorn~The Houses of Healing

It's similar Theoden's words after being healed from Grima's crooked counsel: "Dark have been my dreams of late." Theoden's ailment was spiritual as well, words have meaning, and Grima's crooked counsel made him appear weak and sickly.

Perhaps, on its own, the Black Breath is not deadly? Merry is a resilient hobbit, who had his first brush with "sorcery" and he for the most part escaped harm; it gave him a bad dream. Faramir before riding out to war was troubled by Denethor's mood and as Aragorn remarks: "he had come close under the Shadow before ever he rode to battle.."

Edit: X'ed with Formendacil! Ahh this might be the first X'ed posting with a member outside of a werewolf game in years!

[Morsul the Dark]

Apparently I last logged in December 2019. Fascinating to come back on an active day.

To Boro’s point of patience, Sauron was also a trickster and manipulative. Certainly able to convince the people that a plague was overblown or not so dangerous. If we’re to pull on Covid a certain former president seems equivalent here.

To the Black Breath I would say it’s definitely of the mind and soul a sort of dismay that actually affects your physiology. Consider it like a concentrated use of their trait of general fear and malice that the nazgul project out.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The correctile dysfunction has flared up, and I want to say that while I do not think the Black Breath is a form of infectious pathogen, technically those symptoms could be caused by one. After all, there are also very physical "symptoms" of coma and death. If we're talking about viruses, then viral encephalopathy is on the table. There are parasitic infections like Sleeping Sickness. And prion diseases, which don't give these exact symptoms but are more like infectious rapid dementia, but are another form of "infecting" the brain. Can't think of a bacterial infection that would make you go to sleep and die without also giving prominent other symptoms, but it's not impossible.

I will absolutely defer to those who know quite a bit more than me on matters of their expertise, and I think that you're basically providing evidence for my "the Black Breath is a supernatural weapon patterned on a biological one" (by Sauron, I mean--though that exact statement applies to Tolkien too...).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Honestly though, I think that the Black Breath is indeed an illness of the will, putting it more in the realm of the psychological. And I thought Aragorn equally was able to rescue the victims not through a specific taught skill, but through his own willpower and its interaction with those around him. I think Faramir's passage in the Houses of Healing is what most supports that interpretation. Perhaps is was a passed down knowledge that a person who is able to feel another's soul or what have you with his own would be able to interact with it directly, but credit goes to Aragorn for being that man rather than just learning a forgotten skill.

Yeah, the extent to which Aragorn brings healing knowledge that could have been known by someone else (I'm looking at you, loremaster) or also something that is more ontological is quite debateable. Tolkien very clearly has him, as the returning King, bringing something that no one else could bring and it's telling that Gandalf treats him as Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry's only hope. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm too far astray in thinking that there's SOME skill involved that could have alleviated things and that this lore was lost--the comments about Ioreth and old wives are especially directed this way.

A mixture of both the supernatural (the angelic blood of Lúthien) and the natural (lore) is very Catholic, perhaps even to the level of "consciously so in the revision," a case of grace building on nature. But it also fits that the Black Breath, which is clearly supernatural and natural (in the sense that it produces physiological symptoms, if not that it is caused by germs).