Re-imagining the Ringwraiths

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

This is a very common misperception, which PJ picked up and ran with- but it's in error. Tolkien was explicit (it's somewhere in HME or UT) that the Pony burglary was carried out by Bill Ferny, Harry Goatleaf and the cross-eyed Southerner at the Wraiths' orders, not by the Nazgul personally.

Not that I am disputing the contention, but I've hunted and I haven't found an explicit statement from Tolkien (in his authoritative voice) saying that a Ringwraith was not directly involved in the attack on the attack on the Pony. Can anybody point me to the specific reference?

Admittedly, my HoME library is not complete.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

What I've found interesting also is the Ringwraiths orders weren't to kill/get the Ring from Frodo and take the Ring to Sauron. It appears Sauron doesn't trust anyone in possession of the Ring, not even the Ringwraiths. Their orders were to incapacitate Frodo and take him to Sauron, so Sauron could take the Ring.

I wonder if the intent was always to stab the Ring-bearer with a Morgul blade to render him into a more wraith-like state so they would not have to worry about food and drink to keep him alive.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Not that I am disputing the contention, but I've hunted and I haven't found an explicit statement from Tolkien (in his authoritative voice) saying that a Ringwraith was not directly involved in the attack on the attack on the Pony. Can anybody point me to the specific reference?

Admittedly, my HoME library is not complete.

I'm not aware of a specific reference, I just go by Aragorn's (and Butterbur's) statements. Being characters in the story, they could be wrong, but they make sense...

'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe the gatekeeper too...'~Strider

On September 26th 2 Nazgul enter Bree (4 were in the Shire, the other 3 were said to be keeping a watch on the Greenway south of Bree). Butterbur says he shut the door on them and bid them off.

September 29th is Frodo's "accident" in the Prancing Pony.
September 30th, over night Crickhollow and The Prancing Pony are attacked.

However, I don't think it was the Nazgul that ripped up the beds because of Aragorn's point they aren't all there yet "and in any case that is not their way." Because they aren't all there yet to where they would attack a "house where there are lights and many people," not when they could drive Ferny and his men to some mischief.

Also, there's Butterbur: "But spooks or no spooks, they won't get in The Pony so easy.' He already shut the door on the 2 that came to Bree on the 26th, so there's no reason to think he's blowing smoke by telling the hobbits they won't get into the Pony easily.

I believe the attack on the pony, in combination with Ferny having the only horse available, was meant to try to delay their departure until all 9 could be gathered together and then the Nazgul could attack them in the open land. There's 1 in Bree (Merry comes under the black breath) but on September 29th at most there only appears to be 2 Nazgul and they were simply putting Ferny to work in order to delay Aragorn and the hobbits departure.

Edit:

Another point that I kept reminding myself during my most recent reading...as the readers we learn all the information, but it's interesting to step back and think that not all the Ringwraiths have all the same information that we have.

Only 4 enter the Shire, so it's reasonable to imagine the 5 who did not, don't know all the information that the 4 who entered the Shire know. The 4 then find out Frodo's moving to Crickhollow, but did not know Frodo was leaving Crickhollow and Fatty's diversion worked. The 2 that came to Bree only know Frodo had not come there yet, but he might be. I imagine there had to be quite a lot of messages going back and forth as the 9 are rather spread out until early October, when all 9 attack Gandalf on October 3rd.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm not aware of a specific reference, I just go by Aragorn's (and Butterbur's) statements. Being characters in the story, they could be wrong, but they make sense...

I asked because William Cloud Hicklin said there was an explicit statement.

However, I don't think it was the Nazgul that ripped up the beds because of Aragorn's point they aren't all there yet "and in any case that is not their way." Because they aren't all there yet to where they would attack a "house where there are lights and many people," not when they could drive Ferny and his men to some mischief.

I think the Nazgul were either there or right outside observing. That they had Ferny and company do most of the dirty work I do not doubt. But I do doubt that they would let Ferny, who they cannot have had much of a relationship with and would probably view as an unreliable character, have very much leash in getting his hands on the Ringbearer or even more importantly the Master's Precious.

Also, there's Butterbur: "But spooks or no spooks, they won't get in The Pony so easy.' He already shut the door on the 2 that came to Bree on the 26th, so there's no reason to think he's blowing smoke by telling the hobbits they won't get into the Pony easily.

Well, somebody got into the Pony during the night without it being discovered until the next morning.

I believe the attack on the pony, in combination with Ferny having the only horse available, was meant to try to delay their departure until all 9 could be gathered together and then the Nazgul could attack them in the open land.

I don't know that this delay would have served that purpose very well.

Did the Nazgul know about Aragorn (not in the who he actually was sense, but in the sense of being an experienced traveller and able to help the Ringbearer in the Wild, as he in fact did)?

If the Nazgul knew about Aragorn's presence in the Pony, or understood the significance of it then maybe I can see the point. But on the whole, I think the Nazgul would want the Ringbearer to get out into the middle of nowhere as quickly as possible.

I think the attack was a genuine attempt to get hold of the Ringbearer.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The two Wraiths who were in Bree the night the hobbits were there knew very little. According to the Hunt For the Ring, Khamul and four others had entered the Shire and, after Frodo escaped across Bucklebury Ferry the night of the 25th, they re-assembled at the Bridge. One was left there to watch it while Khamul and one companion entered Buckland to search it out (they would raid Crickhollow later); the other two were sent to report to the Witch-King, who had stationed himself on the Greenway south of Bree. He in turn sent three to ride cross-country to Weathertop and then scour the Road back westwards as far as Bree. It seems that their presence there was, besides taking a left turn, a stop to interview their spy the cross-eyed Southerner, who reported the odd happenings at the Pony. One immediately rode south to report; the other two attempted to capture Merry, and then orchestrated the Pony burglary. So it was Chance that they arrived on the same night as the Ringbearer; and even greater Chance that they missed him ... furthermore, their report the next night to the W-K confuses him, since the Ring is reported to be both in Buckland and in Bree!

-----------------------
As for trusting local yokels to bring them the Ring; they were I surmise fairly secure in the knowledge that the hapless Ferny (or whomever) wouldn't know what it was, and wouldn't be exposed to it long enough for it to gain much if any hold; and moreover the stooges were under a 'shadow of fear' that made disobedience unlikely in the extreme. And if it happened anyway, well, dealing with a simpleminded and easily terrified-to-paralysis Man, alone and at night, wasn't a very great matter.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

As for trusting local yokels to bring them the Ring; they were I surmise fairly secure in the knowledge that the hapless Ferny (or whomever) wouldn't know what it was, and wouldn't be exposed to it long enough for it to gain much if any hold; and moreover the stooges were under a 'shadow of fear' that made disobedience unlikely in the extreme. And if it happened anyway, well, dealing with a simpleminded and easily terrified-to-paralysis Man, alone and at night, wasn't a very great matter.

I don't agree here.

The Nazgul at this stage were aware of the trechery of Saruman (regardless of which version of the story being referenced). If I were in their shoes I would most assuredly not trusted Ferny or the Southerner or anybody else likely to have been involved in the raid out of my sight. Who knows what other agents Saruman might have had in the area.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Not that I am disputing the contention, but I've hunted and I haven't found an explicit statement from Tolkien (in his authoritative voice) saying that a Ringwraith was not directly involved in the attack on the attack on the Pony. Can anybody point me to the specific reference?

Found it! Finally. Treason of Isengard, 71: the "New Plot" of August 1940. Tolkien first wrote that Riders D and E "attack the inn but fail," but struck it out and replaced it with "get Bill Ferny and the Southerner to burgle the Inn."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Found it! Finally. Treason of Isengard, 71: the "New Plot" of August 1940. Tolkien first wrote that Riders D and E "attack the inn but fail," but struck it out and replaced it with "get Bill Ferney and the Southerner to burgle the Inn."

When I consider it, sending others to do the Pony break in was a pretty good idea.

If Ferny and the Southerner had been able to get the Ring (or the hobbit that carried it), well and good. If not, the Wraiths had still, as Aragorn noted, all the distance between Bree and Rivendell to make an overt attack on the Ring-bearer and his party.