Morgoth once had a army of corrupted maiar? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 08-05-2020, 07:22 PM

Never go to Tolkien for council, for he will say both no and yes.

But my (much less scholarly) opinion is that if Elves served as the prototype for orcs, whether directly or as a "model" for a different clay, the corruption could have started as early as in Utumno. I recall that Morgoth's servants would pose as Orome and kill/kidnap stray Elves - and who is to say that he didn't kidnap them for his experiments, amongst other purposes?

Galin · 08-06-2020, 12:04 AM

I'd like to add that as far as timing is concerned, Tolkien need not be constrained by the events and timeline of the 1977 constructed Silmarillion. For example, he's shifting the Awakening of Men back in time to account for the breeding of "regular" orcs from Men while Melkor was in Aman (text 10) -- [pushing it back even more than 3500 Sun Years according to CJRT, if the Awakening of Men is placed even very late in the period of the Great March of the Eldar]

Orc-formed Maiar can account for some early "real" orcs (not delusions). Utumno was broken in Valian Year 1099, so roughly four hundred Valian years elapsed before Morgoth made his first assault on Beleriand in 1497.

And Tolkien here notes (again, text 10) that the breeding of Orcs had already begun before Morgoth was made captive.

08-05-2020, 07:22 PM	#1
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,553	Never go to Tolkien for council, for he will say both no and yes. But my (much less scholarly) opinion is that if Elves served as the prototype for orcs, whether directly or as a "model" for a different clay, the corruption could have started as early as in Utumno. I recall that Morgoth's servants would pose as Orome and kill/kidnap stray Elves - and who is to say that he didn't kidnap them for his experiments, amongst other purposes? __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

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08-06-2020, 12:04 AM	#2
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	I'd like to add that as far as timing is concerned, Tolkien need not be constrained by the events and timeline of the 1977 constructed Silmarillion. For example, he's shifting the Awakening of Men back in time to account for the breeding of "regular" orcs from Men while Melkor was in Aman (text 10) -- [pushing it back even more than 3500 Sun Years according to CJRT, if the Awakening of Men is placed even very late in the period of the Great March of the Eldar] Orc-formed Maiar can account for some early "real" orcs (not delusions). Utumno was broken in Valian Year 1099, so roughly four hundred Valian years elapsed before Morgoth made his first assault on Beleriand in 1497. And Tolkien here notes (again, text 10) that the breeding of Orcs had already begun before Morgoth was made captive.