Details in HOME about inventing Arwen? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 07-14-2020, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindil

I saw and now reread the thread in question.
This still leaves the question of what position you are fortunate to occupy that gives you access to Marquette?
Can anyone get stuff from them? Is there an index that makes it easy to find a bit of this or that? Do they send scans by email?
Or do you hold a necessary professorship somewhere?
Or are you just sufficiently settled to be able to afford zillions of hours picking through the ore?

Well, I don't have any sort of "position;" I'm certainly not a professor! The long of the short of it is that I asked Christopher T, and he said yes. As for time- well, I'm retired. Got nothing but time.

mindil · 07-15-2020, 01:01 AM

You are very fortunate. I've got no spare time, not being retired and still having family at home. But LoTR is too fun, so I give it time I don't have.

As for Aragorn, Eowyn and Arwen, I rechecked HoME, and indeed, in VII, JRRT says explicitly that he wants A&E, dated around the time E shows up in the first workings of King of the Golden Hall, but then at some unknown time he drops it, because A&E are just not a good match. He even thinks A might not be a good match for anyone.

Elladan and Elrohir show up much later, and Arwen even later.

Eowyn's death becomes possible because she's no longer shipped with Aragorn, and from the sound of it, JRRT first thinks of sending her off to the Pelannor (not yet so named, probably) because he's looking for some good use for the character. Whether she dies or not is irrespective of A&E's wisp of a relationship, which helps explain why the competing versions seem so arbitrary - it makes no essential difference to the main characters if she lives or instead dies heroically.

It's not so strange that JRRT first thought of A&E, as Aragorn's stature was not overly high at that point in the story development. It kept rising throughout the writing. For the longest time, he was a scruffy hobbit, and when he became a dunadan, he was still only a scruffy remnant of a noble line. His hidden messianic qualities kept ramping up from phase to phase of the writing.

Possibly, your scrap of note is when JRRT first decided that A&A was appropriate. From HoME's minimalist record of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, it seems to have been written very late in the game, a major retcon to document for Aragorn the stature that was now envisioned for him, that allowed him to marry Elrond's daughter.

So perhaps the underlying question is not - Where did the idea of Arwen come from?, but When did JRRT realize that he had a messianic figure in Aragorn? It seems to have been during the writing of the Paths of the Dead. In RoTK, it's around then that the other characters notice it, too.

Are there any documented comments by JRRT about this evolution? About his feelings about it, or how it came to be?

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07-15-2020, 01:01 AM	#2
mindil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 47	You are very fortunate. I've got no spare time, not being retired and still having family at home. But LoTR is too fun, so I give it time I don't have. As for Aragorn, Eowyn and Arwen, I rechecked HoME, and indeed, in VII, JRRT says explicitly that he wants A&E, dated around the time E shows up in the first workings of King of the Golden Hall, but then at some unknown time he drops it, because A&E are just not a good match. He even thinks A might not be a good match for anyone. Elladan and Elrohir show up much later, and Arwen even later. Eowyn's death becomes possible because she's no longer shipped with Aragorn, and from the sound of it, JRRT first thinks of sending her off to the Pelannor (not yet so named, probably) because he's looking for some good use for the character. Whether she dies or not is irrespective of A&E's wisp of a relationship, which helps explain why the competing versions seem so arbitrary - it makes no essential difference to the main characters if she lives or instead dies heroically. It's not so strange that JRRT first thought of A&E, as Aragorn's stature was not overly high at that point in the story development. It kept rising throughout the writing. For the longest time, he was a scruffy hobbit, and when he became a dunadan, he was still only a scruffy remnant of a noble line. His hidden messianic qualities kept ramping up from phase to phase of the writing. Possibly, your scrap of note is when JRRT first decided that A&A was appropriate. From HoME's minimalist record of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, it seems to have been written very late in the game, a major retcon to document for Aragorn the stature that was now envisioned for him, that allowed him to marry Elrond's daughter. So perhaps the underlying question is not - Where did the idea of Arwen come from?, but When did JRRT realize that he had a messianic figure in Aragorn? It seems to have been during the writing of the Paths of the Dead. In RoTK, it's around then that the other characters notice it, too. Are there any documented comments by JRRT about this evolution? About his feelings about it, or how it came to be?