Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Legate had already condemned the people who brought up Kit, so when I also brought it up, he thinks it's jumping on the bandwagon. Which is all somewhat fair, except that it was my genuine first reaction to seeing someone keep talking about a slip until the Ranger was forced to straight up admit it - this is very suspicious! Yeah, I wasn't the first to mention it, but I'm not going to avoid saying that I think it's suspicious just because I wasn't the first person to see it go down and say something about it.

I was not referring to you speaking about that one thing, but about everything. Boro, Mac. Everything that has been deemed "controversial by the public". I am not saying these can't be genuine suspicions, but these are all things you can then easily pick up if a bandwagon starts on either of them - and they all seem like they easily could.

EDIT: x-ed with multiple again and took out something I accidentally quoted

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I was not referring to you speaking about that one thing, but about everything. Boro, Mac. Everything that has been deemed "controversial by the public". I am not saying these can't be genuine suspicions, but these are all things you can then easily pick up if a bandwagon starts on either of them - and they all seem like they easily could.

With Boro that's again probably fair. However with Mac, I had been suspicious of him yesterDay, and I've mentioned it a few times. One thing you are right about is that I haven't spent the time to really look at the quieter players. Most of the people I suspect right now are the louder players who have done things that are obviously suspicious. I'll do my best to take a look at the players who are currently flying under my radar. I may even do a list, though I've tried once or twice and just found the sheer size of the village and the number of people I have no read on a little overwhelming.

[Kitanna]

Shasta
Post #63: Banter about cobbler
Post #64: Banter about Lady Macbeth
Post #65: +1 for Inzil. I assume one point for a comeback...?
Post #66: Likes something Lottie says about a no lynch idea from G55.
Post #67: Says he's contributed enough to look like he's particpating. Says he'd vote for Lommy. But clearly a joke.
Post #175: Returns from his slumber to let us know here's reading through.
Post #188:

Based on nothing more than this description of events I'd speculate on Cobbler-G55 and Innocent-Rikae. My opinion may change after I get context.

*stares into the nothingness of the void to make sense of his accuracy*
Post #190: Responds to a Lottie, one I believe is about keeping an eye on Brinn
Post #191: Reiterates finding Rikae innocent and G55 cobblerish. Also finds some suspcion in Pitch/Eonwe
Post #192: Asks for more context on a Pitch post
Post #197: Digs in on Greenie's analysis. Going so far as to say an evil Greenie might mean an evil Ka. Most of the post is just benign reponses to what Greenie said of everyone.
Post #198: Responds to a comment from Pitch
Post #201: Likes a post Ka made.
Post #204:

Of those with votes, I won't vote for Rikae, could vote for Brinn or Pitch, and probably won't be voting for G55 unless it's to save someone I think is innocent.

Post #207: Gives an opinion on Greenie. Did agree with some of her points, but also didn't on others. Seemed to be someone he thought warranted watching, but didn't outright suspect.
Post #211: Response to a Greenie
Post #215: Makes a bad pun/dad joke. I point to the door of my office and yell "get out" to no one.
Post #229: Time check for self based on Inzil's comment about "last night?!"
Post #233: Response to Pitch
Post #239: Votes Pitch
Post #248: Not comfortable with Greenie or Eonwe's votes.
Post #322:

I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did.

This is before all those posts close together popped up about my comments toward the fake reveal.
Shasta hasn't been back since. A few others have mentioned feeling ok or good about him. To me, I mean, seems genuine in his short posts, but I'm finding it hard to truly sort him out.

[Kath]

I'm sorry, I'm very short on time toDay and won't be back again before the deadline so I need to vote now. I've skim read since my last post just to get the general gist of where everyone is but haven't looked at anything much in detail.

The person jumping out to me right now is Inzil and it's because of the Kit thing. So I'm being a total hypocrite by talking about it again.

Originally Posted by Inzil

It could hardly have stayed hidden. Thing is, the only way she could have known G55 wasn't who she claimed was if she was the Ranger herself. If that's the case, why on Arda would Rikae have been a better target over Kit (unless the Wolves indeed were antsy Rikae might be the Seer)?

Since we're now talking about it, assuming Kit is the Ranger, the only reason I can see for the wolves going after Rikae instead of her is that they thought she was the Seer. This felt clear to me from the top of the Day.

Originally Posted by Inzil

That's what I can't fathom. Does it give Rikae-as-possible-Seer more weight? Or could it point to a very bold Kitwolf?

Ok, maybe it's because I am taking the Kit thing at face value, but then because of that I'm not sure about this push for a Kitwolf theory. It was picked up on and Inzil quickly dropped it.

And then he seemed quite defensive when people said that they didn't like it all being brought up.

++INZIL

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Kath

Since we're now talking about it, assuming Kit is the Ranger, the only reason I can see for the wolves going after Rikae instead of her is that they thought she was the Seer.

THIS. Which points to either Mac or Brinn (not both, I think - Mac voted Brinn at a point where the Galwagon was well on the way, no particular danger to him and no need to bus a packmate). Finding out Mac's role will also shed a light on Brinn.


Right now my vote could go to either Mac or Zil.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

THIS. Which points to either Mac or Brinn (not both, I think - Mac voted Brinn at a point where the Galwagon was well on the way, no particular danger to him and no need to bus a packmate). Finding out Mac's role will also shed a light on Brinn.

Right now my vote could go to either Mac or Zil.

My inclination would be to vote Zil, but I like this argument for learning more about Brinn's role by voting Mac. I could go either way.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Huin

He seems to be focussing heavily on the people who suspect him, and explaining why that must make them wolves.

I made 7 quotes in that post, 4 of which were from people who suspected me.
I talked about 6 people, 3 of which suspected me, 2 of which I suspect in turn.

Yeah, that post focuses on that a bit more than it should, but your summary is not honest.


Anyway, I’ve been meaning to clear my mind suspicion wise.

Seem innocent
Kath
THE Ka

Seem innocent-ish
Kitanna
Pitch

Wary, but not worried too much
Legate - he seems more scattered than usual, maybe that’s just me
Huin - seems very helpful and productive, but sometimes feels odd
Boro - kind of like that, too
Brinniel - torn right here

Like heck do I know (this is the part I gotta work on trimming down)
Loslote
Lhuna
Inzil
Lalaith
Eonwe
Rune
Sally
Shasta

Alarm bells
Lommy -
Greenie - not because they suspect me (I know I set myself up to be suspected the way I’ve acted), but because the way they do it is sketchy as hell

[Brinniel]

I find myself sort of agreeing with Lottie's suspect list. Should I be worried?

Inzil I have found a bit fishy from the start, and toDay's posts aren't helping.

I did not like Boro's vote yesterDay or his behavior toDay. It's awfully bold of him to presume I'm a wolf based on reasons outside of my posting - and I wouldn't rule him out as a bold wolf.

Mac I'm a little more torn about. There are some posts of his I actually like, including his thoughts on Greenie. However he seems nervous toDay, which is generally suspicious. And I'm also still a bit wary of his posts from the second half of yesterDay.

[Pitchwife]

Lottie, how is it that my involvement in the Zil-Kit thing is suspicious, whereas Lhuna, who was also involved (and made sure to point the issue out in case somebody had overlooked Zil's ealier post?) is 'helpful and thoughtful'?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Home and catching up.

A thought I thought last night before bed - a possible reason for a Rikae kill is that they were onto something with their train of thought re: the anti-Brinn wagon. Weigh in, please.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Lottie, how is it that my involvement in the Zil-Kit thing is suspicious, whereas Lhuna, who was also involved (and made sure to point the issue out in case somebody had overlooked Zil's ealier post?) is 'helpful and thoughtful'?

That's a good point, and I earlier did put both of you in that category, but it didn't come to mind when making the list. That's probably a bias on my end - I already suspected you and that added to that suspicion, whereas I didn't already suspect Lhuna and so it didn't stick in my mind. Thanks for pointing that out, I should look back at that with (hopefully) a less biased frame of mind!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

It is curious that Mac has increased this this type of semi-joking argument toDay. Yesterday based on actions I could understand the flighty tone he answered questions laid at him about his ‘lists’, but this is as if he’s trying to rehearse a story by telling and talking about himself over and over and then feigning ‘usual paranoia’.
So, why does Mac want to be a point of attention?

Who benefits from Mac’s performance is really what I’m wondering.

Well, if Mac is a wolf, he clearly started the Day with the mindset that he's a lost cause because Rikae's death points to him anyway so perhaps he could then at least do his packmates a service by trying to attract as much attention as possible? I still don't understand why macwolf would be this paranoid/suicidal, but I see even less reason for ordomac to act this way.

Originally Posted by Lhuna

++THINLÓMIEN

Parting shot: Friendly reminder, a bandwagon does not start with the first vote.

Umm, why? And a very ominous parting shot to accompany it. I don't like this one bit. "Fellow wolves, rally here, wink wink nudge nudge?"


edit: xed with THE Ka

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Umm, why? And a very ominous parting shot to accompany it. I don't like this one bit. "Fellow wolves, rally here, wink wink nudge nudge?"


edit: xed with THE Ka

(Regarding Lhuna's vote for Lommy)

Agreed. If we're speaking of zombies. That looked like a rotten parting shot, Lhuna. *ping*

[Thinlómien]

I'm currently having a somewhat crazy idea of a Mac-Lhuna-Greenie pack, with maybe Eönwë and someone who's flying under my radar, such as Kath or THE Ka, or Sally. That would be pretty epic.

Mac-Greenie has a slight wolf-on-wolf vibe to me (in fact did already yesterDay when Greenie voted Mac out of the blue enough to make it look like a daring wolf-on-wolf move she could totally pull), then toDay Greenie's been waffling on whether Brinn or Mac looks more sketchy while conveniently lumping them together (while I still maintain that if you actually read Rikae's posts, it doesn't really look like she seerdreamt a guilty Brinn!) while Mac has been conveniently lumping me and Greenie together as his top suspects, then choosing to vote me. (After Lhuna's eerie post, I daresay, which Greenie just mildly defended.) See, it's all coming together!

(Yes this is a tongue-in-cheek accusation, but I still think I'm onto something, at least partially. Why Eönwë? He just rubs me the wrong way toDay, plus I get a buddy-buddy vibe between him and Greenie. Also just saying he lists Lhuna and Greenie as innocent and Mac in a vague "dangerous" category alongside a bunch of people without much explanation.)


edit: xed with Zil and Legate

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Why… why would the real Ranger do that on the end of Day 2?

Ranger is arguably one of the more key gifted roles next to Seer. You’d want to remain concealed as much as possible in order to see from the game Day who you need to protect that Night.
If someone pretends to be your role? Oh well. You can’t immediately go after them the next Day in game without drawing obvious attention.

EXACTLY. Thank you.

Can barely keep my eyes open anymore, so

++THINLÓMIEN

Parting shot: Friendly reminder, a bandwagon does not start with the first vote.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Lhuna

Wait let me see if I get this right. If Legate is innocent it could be easy to build a case against him, so you suspected Pitch because he picked on Legate. Then you eased up on suspecting Pitch because you did not want to be caught in a bandwagon that could be orchestrated by wolves.

I'm just... Lost. Shouldn't one back off from suspecting someone because of what they said, not because you're worried about what others would think if you end up voting for an innocent? Not helping your case here.

Yes, and that post got me in a lot of trouble yesterDay, however, I stand by it. I didn't back off of him because of what people might think of me - I was more concerned that I was being manipulated by the wolves.

Originally Posted by Kit

I have spent more time on WW than my actual job today.

I feel you here. And most of my time is spent trying to play catch up!

[Loslote]

Feel good about
Legate - I wasn't sure yesterDay, but his posts toDay give me an innocent vibe.
Kitanna - If she's lying, we'll find out eventually. For now I see no reason to distrust her.
Shasta - I really like how he handled the Kit situation, trying to defuse it without drawing attention to it.

Feel okay about
Greenie - I've liked some of her points, and I feel like she's being very helpful. I don't have a strong enough sense of her to put her in the "good" category, though.
Huinesoron - I like the way he's thinking about the game, which makes me feel generally okay about him. I do see some of the points people have made about his summaries not always being completely accurate, though, and that's something to keep an eye on - in particular, do his summaries end up resulting in a cohesive misleading campaign?
Lhuna - I've liked what I've seen so far toDay. She seems to be helpful and thoughtful.
Brinniel - I didn't get any sense at the deadline yesterDay that any wolves were trying to swing the vote away from her. Moreover, I've been getting an innocent vibe from her. I don't want to assume innocence, though, so I won't let my feeling that wolves were not trying to save her push her into the "good" category. I could be wrong - a lot of people get a very different feeling from her - but I don't suspect her at this point.

Feel dubious about
Pitchwife - I go back and forth on Pitch. I got a wolfy vibe yesterDay, and I'm torn on his involvement with the Kit-Zil thing earlier. I don't have him at the top of my suspicion list, but I don't trust him either.
Lommy - I get a vaguely positive vibe from her, but then I end up disagreeing with most of what she actually says. I don't know if we're just coming from very different perspectives, but I end up not knowing what to think about her.

Feel bad about
Zil - He'd been largely flying under the radar for me, right up until he pointed out the Kit thing, which I found highly suspicious. I don't know what motivation an innocent would have in bringing it up. I could easily see that being something the wolves planned out over Night.
Boro - I haven't been comfortable with his posts toDay. Like Lommy, he could just be approach this from a completely opposite perspective than I am, but I get a bad feeling from him.
Mac - I started to be suspicious of him yesterDay, and his posts today have been worrying. Specifically, his posts about being framed felt a little pre-planned to me - like he knew Rikae was going to die and had time to work himself up about their death implicating him.

Feel nothing about
Kath - I think what I've seen has been pretty reasonable, but she's flying under my radar. Almost put her in "okay", but I don't have a strong enough feeling.
Lalaith - ditto Kath - what I've seen has felt fine, but I haven't gotten a really good sense.
Eönwë - I haven't seen enough to get a feeling one way or the other.
Rune - No read at all, I'd almost be inclined to put him in "dubious" just based on a vague feeling but it's not strong enough or based on anything, so I'll reserve judgement until I have a better read.
THE Ka - ditto Kath and Lalaith - seems helpful, but flying under my radar.
Sally - I haven't seen enough from her to get a good reading on her yet, totally under my radar.

I don't like how many people I don't have a read on, but in such a big village, it's hard to get a sense from everyone. I will probably vote for someone in my 'bad feeling' category, unless someone in my 'dubious' or 'no feeling' categories does something particularly suspicious.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, reading over my main suspects (Mac, Pitch, Lommy, Zil, in that order for now):

Mac: Thought innocent yesterDay, but realised today that was down to not trusting the way people were suspecting him, when those people were a (now) known and a probable innocent. ToDay, launched straight into 'what if everyone thinks I'm a wolf', and starts in on Kitanna, which is an interesting line in view of, y'know... Kitanna. And he keeps trying to implicate the people who suspect him. I really don't like this.

Pitchwife: My chief suspect yesterDay, for his actions in the GLP & several 'just asking questions' posts; also his position on the Brinn-wagon (both suspicion and voting). Launches toDay with "this may implicate Brinn, except isn't that almost too obvious?" - I'm starting to view this less as 'just asking questions', and more as 'they will say both no and yes'. He suspects Zil with no explanation (at the time), and later pushes both the start and the stop of the Kit discussion, including one 'saw it as I was writing' crosspost that makes me feel like his post was intended to take credit for starting the 'let's shut it down' discussion.

Lommy: My second suspect yesterDay, mostly for reasons of tone I think. ToDay, she seems a lot better. #350 is a good example of this - she's not sitting there saying 'yes, but maybe no', she's analysing the evidence for both (all) sides of the discussion. And she's cast the first vote, too.

Zil: Completely off my radar yesterDay; it's those short posts of his. Today, spent a fair few posts talking about things we know aren't true, such as Rikae-wolf; even more posts on the Kit discussion; really, I'm seeing a lot of posts where Zil's contribution is shorter than what he's replying to! It may be just his style, so he's not top of my list, but he does look (at least at times) like a wolf trying to look active without having to say much.

I'm starting to worry I might just trust people who write long posts on multiple topics. :-/

Okay, at the moment I'm likely to vote Mac, but will take Pitch as still looking about as suspicious as yesterday (Mac's just more suspicious). Lommy I'm going to call neutral for now. Zil I think there's a better-than-even chance is a wolf.

At the moment, two of my top three have 1 vote each. It's going to be interesting to see who gets offered up to take the heat off them...

hS

[Boromir88]

Ok, so reading has caught up to date. I made brief notes on things that were addressed to me.

Respond to saying sally's vote looked suspicious:

sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.

I honestly can't tell you my point was here...other than temporary bout of conspiracy theory. It was late for me, I was exhausted, went to bed hungry and had a lapse that was focused more on sleeping than making sense. For whatever it's worth, it's not a suspicious vote. I'm personally feeling better today and sally looks trusty.

Respond to Greenie:

Why? I’m a little uneasy about Eonwe’s vote too as he’s been very cautious in general and that vote was, as Lommy and Lottie have pointed out, an easy way to keep his hands clean. But whether G55 was the cobbler or the ranger shouldn’t really impact an assessment of Eonwe because an Eonwolf wouldn’t know what she was, aside from “not wolf”.

True, but not so much that EonWolf wouldn't have known G55's specific role. It's more a throw away vote that could have been useful to prevent a ranger from getting lynched I would zero in and want to pay far more attention to. A throw away vote that didn't matter in the lynch of a cobbler I'm not going to worry about.

If that doesn't quite explain it well enough, for further understanding of why I'm not interested in throw away votes that didn't matter to a cobbler being lynched...see my next point below.

Response to Legate and Eonwe's accusations with my focus on the G55/Brinn wagons.

In all seriousness, am I the only one who's frustrated by the thought of thousands of paths and leads going every which way? One person can't possibly consider everything that you expect me to consider. I forget who, someone said we have a boring/unadventurous wolf pack. I think we have 5 wolves pulling things in 500 different ways and some are vocal leading the paths, others are laying low/joining in to different paths.

I'm one person. Right? I can't consider everything and to lump it on my desk "Boro didn't look at this" "Boro didn't look at that", is just flat wrong. "That must mean he's saying there can't be a wolf in the non-G55/Brinn voters." No, I didn't say that at all and that looks straight up suspicious. I just said I wasn't going to look into it. You went and looked into it. Great. Thank you. Seriously, thank you. It means I can look at what you say and make some judgements about you and the non-G55/Brinn voters.

Edit: crossed with a bunch

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Finding out Mac's role will also shed a light on Brinn.

Beginning to suspect the same. Would I vote Mac based on his individual words alone? Nope. Could I vote for Mac just to flush out who needs him out? High possibility, but it would depend on identifying who needs him out and if they won’t benefit from him acting next Day as well.

As I said in a previous post, it’s more curious to me why Mac wants to be associated with suspicion, why he keeps repeating his tale to us, etc. The problem I have is trying to figure out who benefits from Mac not only being suspicious, but later possibly being voted toDay into a (and I guess I’ll say it…) Macwagon. Wolves could easily hide in a pushed vote for Mac since he’s becoming a wonderful distraction along with Zil’s continued interest in Kit.
I need to go back for earlier toDay and see who could be nudging him along.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I saw that whole thing happening, realized I was caught up, and my first thought was, "Okay, Kit isn't a wolf. But. Wait. If Kit IS a wolf after all, what would be the point of revealing? To draw out the real Ranger. I should make sure that doesn't happen, just in case!" Now, was that necessary? Probably not, it seems pretty obvious. But at the time, it seemed important to say.

So, a knee-jerk reaction due to the DL and if there was a Kitwolf they were being really bold knowing there was only minutes to go before Night?
That could be possible, if they were an especially bold wolf. So far though, it appears our wolves have been rather quiet or they’re just carefully watching how we’re reacting to better tailor their defense. If one of them has agreed to be bold, I could see that as well.