Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Inziladun]

On another note, Steve's vote was odd, to say the least. It's natural to have been frustrated by Urwen's lack of reasoning (I was), but there was no chance she would be lynched.

[Thinlómien]

asdfghjklölkjhgfghjkllkjhgfghjk

^my summary of yesterDay

But hey, quite a nice result after all! When I first saw Gal's reveal I was like "I can't deal with this right now", then I thought "but I gotta, and I gotta give her the benefit of doubt", then I fervently wished there would be enough votes to lynch Brinn instead but turns out it was okay this way. And in hindsight, it makes sense.

But I already see people talking as if the bandwagon against Brinn is a sign of her innocence? No??? If the wolves were trying to orchestrate an innocent lynch yesterDay, it could have just as well been Gal, who they also knew wasn't one of them.

As for Rikae - I guess she just seemed overall defensive and her touchy reactions to being accused by Gal could have been interpreted as signs iof giftednes? But it'd be worth it to look at her posts to look at "seer dreams" the wolves may have caught on.

Ok, that was first thoughts. Now I will actually read what you guys have said so far toDay and comment on that...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

As for Rikae - I guess she just seemed overall defensive and her touchy reactions to being accused by Gal could have been interpreted as signs iof giftednes? But it'd be worth it to look at her posts to look at "seer dreams" the wolves may have caught on.

That's what I assumed as well. I saw Rikae as a defensive wolf during the Night, but obviously I was wrong, so I suspect the wolves saw Rikae as a defensive gifted. After all, Rikae's temper tends to be more fiery when given a special role.

Didn't vote yesterDay: Lal. I wonder if she knows the game has started.

Weird votes yesterDay (Gal notwithstanding): Steve. What the frell? Also Green, which was another throwaway and strikes me as odd.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

That's what I assumed as well. I saw Rikae as a defensive wolf during the Night, but obviously I was wrong, so I suspect the wolves saw Rikae as a defensive gifted. After all, Rikae's temper tends to be more fiery when given a special role.

Maybe. Hers was the first vote on Brinn, and then she got a little scratchy with those of us avoiding that wagon. That could point toward a Brinnwolf, but it could also lead back to the idea of a frameup.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Didn't vote yesterDay: Lal. I wonder if she knows the game has started. :eek

Well, she did post.

x/d with all since #301

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But I already see people talking as if the bandwagon against Brinn is a sign of her innocence? No??? If the wolves were trying to orchestrate an innocent lynch yesterDay, it could have just as well been Gal, who they also knew wasn't one of them.

I don't think Brinn's innocence is proven by any means, but I do think that the vote patterns look (to me at least) very much like wolves choosing between two "innocents". I also think that the wolves would probably have rather lynched Brinn over G55, assuming neither was a packmate. I don't think they were trying to "orchestrate an innocent lynch" - I think, based on the overall tone of the late voters, that it came down to two options, neither of whom was a wolf. No one felt like a wolf nervously trying to avoid lynching a packmate without overtly defending them, or anything like that.

[Thinlómien]

Re: Hui's summary of G55 - when you put it all together it's pretty obvious how much distraction and havoc she caused, and how fun it must have been for her. (Gotta be a little envious; cobbler is maybe my fave role...) Well played *waves to the qt thread* but I'm glad we got you out of the way this early.

Originally Posted by Hui

Lommy flipflops (sorry, considers both sides)

Originally Posted by Hui

The one that jumps out on this lynch list is once again Lommy. I would dearly love to know what 'make this more interesting' meant, because to my mind, voting for one of the top two suspects (and the one who already had the most votes up to a minute before) is the opposite of 'making it interesting'.

Of the people who were "on the table" when I voted, I thought Pitchwife looked the most innocent, but I didn't have much of a preference as for Gal vs Brinn. I suspected both of them a little, but neither was my top suspect. (Gal looked maybe more suspicious to me than Brinn, but more likely of the two to turn out to be a mere cobbler if evil.) Since the last few votes (looking at the tally, I think Rune and Ka's for Brinn), it clarified the overall situation to me that it's likely to be Gal vs Brinn in the end and I was okay with either. So I thought I might as well cast my vote then (and not later) and decided to vote Gal whose bandwagon seemed to me to have less momentum. What I meant by "let's make this more interesting" was "let's see if anyone rushes to save Gal, or joins the bandwagon after me to save Brinn". Adding a new vote candidate 15min before the dl when 2/3 of the village had already voted would have been the opposite of making it interesting...

Originally Posted by Boro

2nd thought is there wasn't a whole lot of talk about how the QT voting will turn out. With the cobbler being there and holding the tiebreaker, we can't trust the QT vote at all today. It's going to be another nerve-wracking DL.

Sheesh, it's just our cobbler having one vote, just like she did yesterDay, with the difference that we know it's the cobbler's vote and we don't need to discuss its merits.

Originally Posted by Mac

Obviously Gala considered Rikae to be innocent. In fact, by the fairly spirited way she went after them, she likely thought they were not just innocent, but gifted. What set her off against them was an error in a comment about me. Maybe she thought Rikae was the seer, dreamt of wolf-me (No, I’m not a wolf, but she Gala doesn’t know that) and tried to get me lynched by exaggerating what little could be found that early into Day1? Now Rikae is dead. Did the wolves follow Gala’s judgement and thought them gifted? I don't see it, unless maaybe if Brinn is indeed a wolf and the way Rikae suspected her set them off. Not gonna put too many eggs into that basket, though.

What the. This doesn't sound like innocent logic at all! Like how does it even cross your mind to base your theory on Rikae being thought a seer who dreamed of wolf!you when you're not a wolf?

But given that this follows with

Originally Posted by Mac

Unless... I'm being framed. By the exact thinking above, a mewolf would have reason to think Rikae really is the seer. If the wolves are preparing my head for the chopping block, I have to raise my eyebrow at those who suddenly suspected me near the deadline, since this would very much play into their hands/paws. *coughgreeniecough*

if you're a wolf you're either very bold or already lost your hope of appearing innocent in light of the Rikae kill and trying to make the most of it by pointing stuff out before anyone else can? If the cobbler wasn't already dead, I'd be side-eyeing Mac pretty hard right now. I mean I am, but that explanation would at least make sense...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Folks, can we please refer to Rikae as they/them/their? Thank you.

oops I did that yesterDay but not toDay, I'm so sorry Rikae!

Originally Posted by Boro

But had I been able to and not already voted, when I read Steve's vote I thought I would be very tempted to do the same thing. I thought Urwen's vote was unsporty and even though G55 turned out cobbler, I had same exact reaction as Steve's. Looked like Urwen had no interest in being helpful.

Agreed. It would have been a decent Day1 lynch, but it was brought on the table all too late, and all too off-handedly - which I agree was a very safe move from Eönwë if he just wanted to keep his hands clean.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Agreed. It would have been a decent Day1 lynch, but it was brought on the table all too late, and all too off-handedly - which I agree was a very safe move from Eönwë if he just wanted to keep his hands clean.

It was a very safe move, that kept his hands very clean - but also, really didn't seem motivated by wolf hunting. If Urwen was a baby wolf, I might expect that she would've tried harder to be involved. I definitely understand his point of view - this game means a lot to a lot of us, and I understand the temptation to lynch someone to whom it doesn't mean as much. But in terms of wolf hunting, it wasn't really a strong argument.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

It was a very safe move, that kept his hands very clean - but also, really didn't seem motivated by wolf hunting. If Urwen was a baby wolf, I might expect that she would've tried harder to be involved. I definitely understand his point of view - this game means a lot to a lot of us, and I understand the temptation to lynch someone to whom it doesn't mean as much. But in terms of wolf hunting, it wasn't really a strong argument.

Right. I approve of what he did in spirit, but it was unhelpful.
You might expect an Urwolf to have gotten some pointers from her mates.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Brinn

It's highly unlikely G55 will cooperate with Rikae and I believe if I'm right, in the case of a tie, G55 swings the vote.

Nope. Right now that would be Rikae, as the last to die.

Originally Posted by Hui

#163: Pitch suspects Rikae (for suspecting him), but then 'paradoxically' flips and says both she and G55 sound innocent.

This, I feel, is a distorting abbreviation of what I actually said. I said that there was probably a wolf among those suspecting me (i.e. Rikae, Brinn, Kit & Lottie), but didn't suspect Rikae specifically (rather the contrary). The paradox was I was getting non-wolvish vibes from both of them. I admit my post was pretty condensed, but was I so unclear or are you deliberately misreading me?


Also, Zil has just made me raise a big eyebrow in his general direction. *ping* (No, Mac, I'm not going to stop it!)

[Pitchwife]

Folks, can we please refer to Rikae as they/them/their? Thank you.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Nope. Right now that would be Rikae, as the last to die.

Sure of that? I thought those lynched carried seniority over Night-kills.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Since I just saw this, I'll post this immediately before my long, actual post is complete:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Nope. Right now that would be Rikae, as the last to die.

No, it isn't:

Originally Posted by Nogmod in the rules thread

- If there is a tie of votes in the Quarantine Thread, the one who has been quarantined the latest - and has voted for one of the tied candidates - has the final say (aka. her vote counts practically as two). NB. A Nightly infected person is not counted as the "most recently quarantined" unless the tie can not be solved following this rule (in case of which it counts).

It is kinda confusing, but I think it essentially (except for some random exceptions) means "only people lynched will ever be the tiebreakers".

Which would basically mean that yes, we will have a Cobbler vote from the QT toDay. And if we get a Wolf toDay, it won't get any better (but it will still be the best we can do).

In that sense, lynching Cobbler on Day 1 was a really unfortunate thing, but on the other hand, it would have probably come up some Day anyway - and in that sense, it's better if it happened early rather than later when her decisive vote could be more harmful. (She can still team up with WWs, but that's a different issue and depends wholly on the specific circumstances in those future moments.)

The worse part is that it makes any close voting toDay a bit more of a mess, but at least we will know who QT voted for two hours before. So they can't mess up the final voting. Imagine if they had the vote revealed only afterwards, as was once suggested!

Ok, but now back to my... erm, longer (?) post. Will post shortly.

EDIT: x-ed since the post I'm quoting. In the name of all how much are people posting?!?!?!

[Pitchwife]

Meh, I got that wrong then.


I need to go to bed now, having a vet appointment in the morning. See yous.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think it essentially (except for some random exceptions) means "only people lynched will ever be the tiebreakers".

Which would basically mean that yes, we will have a Cobbler vote from the QT toDay.

Legate is correct here on both claims (disclaimer to the second point: unless G55 and Rikae agree on a vote...).

Those "random exceptions" would be situations where none of the "voted to be quarantined" are part of a tie-vote in the QT. In that case the tie-breaker naturally needs to be one Night-Infected (and then similarly, the newest one to join the QT).

I have tried to use different terms of these different QT-dwellers, aka. "quarantined" for those voted out ("lynched") and "infected" for those ending there because of the Nightly activity of the Infectors ("Night Kills"). Obviously, I haven't been clear enough.


PS. We can't count on getting someone to re-vote just before DL in case of a tie, so it has to be a vote already cast that makes the difference. There are only two people in the QT right now, but in a couple of Days it will be different. So the need for this kind of arrangement should become clearer soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, first - there already so many posts toDay, and some struck me immediately, so...

Huinesoron's first post makes me wonder, because on the one hand, the way he's describing his Nightly activity as scribbling this post - which he clearly did - makes it more likely to be an innocent's endeavour; but on the other hand, I am just returning to my misgivings yesterDay and wondering whether he's exactly not being "helpful" here (perhaps WW with enought time on his hands, can imagine) plus subtly steering the discussion back to the "threesome" - and perhaps to Pitch, his yesterDay's suspect. If Pitch was innocent, it would be a safe way for a Wolf to keep on track with consistent suspicion onto a Day that starts the same way as the previous one: with the Village having nearly zero info.

My problem with yesterDay's voting is that half the village (this size) voted for G55 or Brinn, so that says very little. At least, until we know who Brinn is. *glances ominously in her direction* - But black humour aside, that is a fact, and that was the first thing I thought of the moment G55 was lynched and revealed to be a Cobbler. Whatever Brinn is, G55 just bought the WWs an extra Day during which we know nothing.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Just a thought about the QT vote - there are now two players in that thread and one is a cobbler. It's highly unlikely G55 will cooperate with Rikae and I believe if I'm right, in the case of a tie, G55 swings the vote. So while she may not know who the wolves are, we will all have to take that vote with a grain of salt.

I mentioned this above, and yes - unlike a quarantined Wolf, G55 doesn't know who the WWs are, so her vote will also not give much info (the plus side is that it may unexpectedly help the village, but that's pure chance).

Originally Posted by Boromir88

A lot to unpack, but that could have gone much worse than how it turned out. First thought is it must be a cruel wolf pack to put G55 and Rikae together in the QT after their arguments yesterday.

My thoughts exactly. I hope it's bearable.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Oh I'd so love to be a fly on the wall of the QT now.

I have been thinking what kind of person, even if they are a Wolf, could be so cruel to send Rikae there with G55. Now I have one suspect.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I am a little bit side-eyeing the late (but before the "reveal") Brinn voters. If you were a wolf, you'd probably rather keep the loud, distracting player who is haring after someone not in your pack than keep the quieter player who isn't going to help you hide as much. Specifically, Mac, Legate, and Rune.

You are operating awfully close to the idea as if you somehow knew Brinn to be innocent. Objectively, the idea of Wolves keeping loud distracting player vs quiet one makes sense, but your whole theory stands on the idea that Brinn would have to be not one of them.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I think it's very interesting that Legate really didn't seem interested at all in the G55-Pitch options at the deadline yesterDay. In his last post before voting, he throws out Brinn, Kit, and Greenie as options, and then votes the only viable candidate there, but doesn't really talk about the other choices at all. It's not a huge thing, but it does kind of ping my radar as something a wolf might do if he wants to steer the vote a little bit, but doesn't want to look suspicious and isn't as invested as he would be if a wolf were actually in danger.

Well, I wasn't. Or there wasn't time for me to start suddenly weighing them and re-reading their posts. Brinn was the only one from those who I was considering to vote for before (see my list with zones from just before that). The choice, out of those who were likely to get lynched, was obvious.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

On another note, Steve's vote was odd, to say the least. It's natural to have been frustrated by Urwen's lack of reasoning (I was), but there was no chance she would be lynched.

I don't know. I was a bit tempted to vote Urwen then myself (but it goes against my principle - I would usually give a "no show" first-time player one Day pass), and there still were more people who hadn't voted at that point. Anything was possible.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Rikae seems like an obvious choice, having been in a public spat with a traitor and under all circumstances a capacity they would not want around, so we seem to have unadventurous and downright boring wolves.

That was my first impression too. The added value is that either the Wolves are really heartless with sick sense of humour (after the fight the two had, sending them in together), or (I'd rather hope, because FIVE people with zero empathy?!?) perhaps nice Wolves who hope that on the QT, G55 might apologise to Rikae and Rikae might forgive her and then they can share a... drink of... desinfectant, probably.

I am absolutely confused by Mac's tinfoilhatting post at the moment, so maybe I'll leave it for the morning when I can process it with fresh braaaains.

EDIT: x-ed basically since my last. But ok, going to sleep on it for now.

[Urwen]

I think I am gonna take a page out of Pervinca's book and 'disappear'.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I think I am gonna take a page out of Pervinca's book and 'disappear'.

Are you going to speak plainly, or stay in "cryptic mode" indefinitely?

x/d with Lhuna

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I think perhaps Kitanna is my best read at the moment. I had fundamentally the same reaction to G55's eleventh-hour Ranger claim as she did.

[Kath]

That was a crazy end to Day 1. After talk of fake votes we then end up with a fake reveal! At least the village might be quieter with the Cobbler gone, but I dread to think how many QT posts there will end up being ...

As to why Rikae for the Night kill, I would assume the wolves were gunning for someone they thought might be the Seer. It would seem foolish for them not to always be aiming for a Gifted. Trying to set up frame jobs is all well and good in theory but their aim surely has to be to get rid of the greatest danger towards them.

Just going through yesterDay's votes. Have skimmed toDay but not read properly so sorry if things have already been mentioned/answered.

YesterDay's vote tally - I've put known roles in bold in the votes themselves, otherwise I've bolded as normal when talking about it:
Lhuna -> Lhuna

Rikae -> Brinniel (For immediately repeating 2 of 3 names from my list as suspicions, and then backtracking explicitly to avoid getting caught in a trap right after I explained to G55 that my post was intended as a wolf trap.) ~ Rikae

Originally Posted by Rikae

So, just putting this here because I think this could be important later. This Brinn-wagon everyone's talking about is two votes at this point, mine and Pitch's.

And the people who expressed concern about it are Huey, Lottie and Inzil, in that order (let me know if I missed someone).

Now, I found Pitch suspicious from the beginning, although just for vibes really, and Brinn could have started looking like a convenient vote. On the other hand, three people pushing back on a wagon for coming out of nowhere after two reasoned votes (by day 1 standards) is odd, too, especially if Brinn turns out wolfish or the trolley is redirected toward an innocent. Lottie's and Inzil's positions in the anti-Brinnwagon-wagon are, that is - Huey's is pretty bold.

A lot of Rikae's posts are understandably largely debate with G55, but this one seems to put forward most of their opinions from the Day. They are right about the supposed Brinn-wagon, other Brinn voters don't appear until a while later. Six other votes were cast before THE Ka, Rune, Legate and sally then also vote for Brinn. They mention Inzil and Lottie's votes being suspiciously placed in terms of going against a Brinn-wagon, but actually they were also after Shasta and Kitanna had just made it 3 votes for Pitch as opposed to 2 votes for Brinn, so they had also had the same effect.

G55 -> Rikae

Boro -> Pitchwife

Urwen -> G55

Pitchwife -> Brinniel 2

Kath -> G55 2

Shasta -> Pitchwife 2 (I'm jerking the reins a bit here) ~ Shasta

I'd be interested to know a bit more about this vote, Shasta. This vote created a three way tie at the time between Pitch, G55 and Brinn. It's certainly consistent with his earlier suspicions, I just wonder why Pitch over Brinn at this point, especially with the comment at the point of vote as well.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Of those with votes, I won't vote for Rikae, could vote for Brinn or Pitch, and probably won't be voting for G55 unless it's to save someone I think is innocent.

From here, the cross posting of votes makes things difficult. The next vote I would normally consider more carefully, as it was the first to put anyone up to three votes, but it was cross-posted and it isn't clear with how many previous posts.

Kitanna -> Pitchwife 3

Inzil -> G55 3

Same issue - this was cross posted. So Inzil didn't know Kit had made it 3 for Pitch at the time he made it 3 for G55. So really, this is the vote that technically first took someone into the lead for the lynch.

Originally Posted by Inzil

There's no one else I would want at this point, and it could say a lot about Legate, Pitch, and Rikae.

I'd like to know what he now thinks this says about Legate and Pitch, especially in relation to knowing Rikae's role now.

Lottie -> G55 4

Not a cross posted vote and so knows this vote puts G55 into prime position for the lynch.

Originally Posted by Lottie

I think this lynch gives us the most information going forward, and I would be very surprised if she turns out to be innocent.

She earlier agreed with Kitanna about the G-L-P trio looking wolfy.

Originally Posted by Lottie

I've been going back and forth on who I think looks most wolf-like of those three, too. I tend to be more suspicious of G55 and Pitch at first glance, but I've had a very hard time getting a good feel on Legate.

Originally Posted by Lottie

Pitch brings up one of G55's first posts, which has been commented on before, and throws a bit of suspicion her way. This looks to me like Pitch doesn't want to be tied to G55 or seen as defending her, and it makes me more likely to believe Huin's hypothesis that they might both be wolves.

Gets drawn into the G55/Rikae stuff, and also doesn't like that G55 says Kitanna seems tense. Continues to feel G55 and Pitch may be a wolf pair.

Originally Posted by Lottie

If we were doing the bonus vote, I would definitely be voting for G55 at this point.

Ok, so this all seems very consistent and I would really now like to know what she thinks about Pitch given G55 turned out to be a Cobbler and not a wolf. Also, as I was reading through, both her own posts and posts about her seem to somehow make her and Kitanna a pair, I guess from when she followed on the G-L-P idea from Kitanna.

Greenie -> Macalaure

Cross posted with the previous 4 votes. So at this point, Greenie thought Brinn and G55 had 2, Rikae, Pitch and Lhuna had one. An interesting point at which to throw in a new name. It's for coming up with an argument against Brinn sort of on the spot and then backdating said argument to an earlier post, I think. It's interesting coming after her earlier post:

Originally Posted by Greenie

I still think Brinn looks sketchy, and I agree with Mac's points about her, but at the same time Mac's post about her makes me really uneasy.

So one post from Mac ended up changing her from Brinn (who had 2 votes at this point) to Mac. And actually, she kind of agreed with Mac about Brinn's suspicious post:

Originally Posted by Greenie

Still, this is the fishiest thing I’ve seen so far so definitely merits a reread.

So is the suspicion of Mac because he's almost gone on the same reasoning but his seems contrived opposed to hers? It's a less interesting placement for a new name on the list than it could have been due to the cross posting but still was the only other new name besides Urwen.

THE Ka -> Brinniel 3

Ok, not a cross posted vote so knows G55 is already on 4. She seemed to be debating between Brinn and Lottie.

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Between Brinn and Loslote, Brinn is playing far safer in their submarine by just throwing a ‘I have a hunch’ dart at Zil and following the G55-Rikae debate with mild defense of the Day 1 blues. That’s safe and yes, even villagers could take up that tactic, but this consistently? Hrrm.

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Between the two, only Loslote has when come under fire participated in giving a reason why at least for their support for either side in either debate, while Brinn so far as I’ve caught up, has shied away consistently. It makes me all the more suspicious Brinn is playing it entirely too safe out of the two.

So she had pretty much settled on Brinn as a vote, but it also would have been a strange time to put Lottie into the mix anyway.

Eönwë -> Urwen

I don't like this vote, just as I didn't like Urwen's in the first place. He talks about Zil, Brinn and Lommy all being suspicious, and then plumps for someone totally unrelated. 13 votes had been cast with 8 remaining at this point. No one liked Urwen's vote, but did Eonwe really think this was going somewhere?

Rune -> Brinniel 4

Rune said this was cross posted with everyone from 244. I would like to know if that includes 244 because that was Kit's vote for Brinn. Is Rune pushing up Brinn to tie with G55 here or did he not know that?

Lommy -> G55 5

No cross voting so knew she was putting G55 into the lead and adds the comment:

Originally Posted by Lommy

Let's make this more interesting then

Which is indeed interesting ... I would very much like to know what she was thinking with this.

Hui -> G55 6

Hui clearly stated he wanted to avoid Brinn getting lynched and so chose G55 because she had the higher vote tally. It's a bold statement to make at a point where no roles were known. What made him think Brinn was definitely worth saving?

Legate -> Brinniel 5

Out of the options, which by now are realistically Brinn, G55, Pitch - definitely Brinn. Earlier thought Pitch might be Cobbler and thought G55 was playing in her usual style. Kitanna would have been his fake vote. By the time it got to real voting, this would have been a real throwaway so not going with it does make sense. Brinn is the highest up in his suspicions list so this vote does seem logical.

Mac -> Brinniel 6

Not a cross post, knows he's tying Brinn, knows this doesn't mean she's the lynch.

Brinn -> G55 7

Little to read from 'I have to save myself'. An innocent knows they're an innocent, doesn't know what G55 is, has to save themselves. A wolf knows they're guilty, knows G55 is an innocent, has to save themselves!

Sally -> Brinniel 7

This was the only vote after the reveal and again little to read from it. An innocent would be desperate to save the Ranger, a wolf would be desperate to be seen that they were trying to save the Ranger.

Lalaith - no vote

Lal, in the interests of the fact that the Day could have ended really differently, who would you have voted for there? I know it's with hindsight, but would still be interesting!

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Leggie

I am absolutely confused by Mac's tinfoilhatting post at the moment, so maybe I'll leave it for the morning when I can process it with fresh braaaains.

He's a zombie. Get him!

Originally Posted by Leggie

That was my first impression too. The added value is that either the Wolves are really heartless with sick sense of humour (after the fight the two had, sending them in together), or (I'd rather hope, because FIVE people with zero empathy?!?) perhaps nice Wolves who hope that on the QT, G55 might apologise to Rikae and Rikae might forgive her and then they can share a... drink of... desinfectant, probably.

I don't know about you guys, but I think determining who joins Cobb55 in the QT shouldn't be a main factor for a wolf kill. It may be because I've never played with a dead thread before and am yet to see how it affects actual game play, but wouldn't a dead thread game be like any other game in that the wolves would try to get rid of the Gifteds (particularly the Seer) during the Night? Maybe Rikae said something that made the Infected think they're the Seer. Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to go through their posts yesterDay to see if anything like this sticks out.

Off to work, will be back with what's left of my brains later toDay. And apologies for the lack of name bolding. I don't know how anyone manages to make proper Downs posts on mobile!

Edit: crossposted with Urwen. Coming from someone who has committed game suicide more than once in the past, the sooner the better for the village. One less person to worry about.

[Brinniel]

Summaries starting with the most frequent posters...


Inziladun: He is the most frequent poster, yet his posts don't contain a lot of substance and are a bit agreeable. This could be a wolf tactic, which is why he was on my suspect list yesterDay. He did suspect G55 in post #205 - his reasons are explicit, but they seem to be similar to reasons others suspected her. In his vote for G55, he states her death could shed light on Pitch, Legate, and Rikae. I have yet to see him mention the former two toDay. ToDay, he starts by disregarding the possibility of a frame kill and seems to imply that it points to me being a wolf. Then he appears to reverse his position in post #304 to acknowledge that a frame job is possible. Has stated that Eonwe's vote was odd, which I do agree (but more on that later).

Impressions: My opinion of Inzil hasn't really changed much. The frequent posts with low substance can be a wolfish tactic. While his opinion on G55 was consistent, it was an easy bandwagon to follow. And yes I may be biased, but do find his comments about the Night kill fishy.

---

Lottie: Also a frequent poster, but with more substance. She brings up the possibility of a G55/Pitch wolf pair in post #146, and remains consistent with those suspicions and ends up voting for G55. She quickly jumps on Greenie's comments on Mac, which could be suspicious if Mac is innocent. ToDay she finds the last-minute bandwaggoners for me suspicious with the reasoning that if I'm innocent, I'd be a preferable lynch.

Impressions: Lottie is what I call a helpful player, which doesn't point either way alone. However, her suspicions of Pitch/G55 stayed pretty consistent throughout the Day so I don't find her vote suspicious. And her reasoning for the wolves to join the bandwagon to vote me is something I agree with. I think I recall being fooled by Lottie, so I'll remain cautious, but right now I'm leaning innocent.

---

Pitchwife: Early on, he appears to suspect G55 and Legate, but more so the latter for picking up on G55's idea of the no-vote. In post #163, he thinks there's a wolf among Rikae, Kit, Lottie, and me based on our suspicion of him. The Rikae/G55 squabble makes him think better of them. He ended up suspecting my later posts then later voted me for the reasons of using Rikae's shortlist, then backing off and redirecting to Kit.

Impressions: So I found Pitch slightly suspicious yesterDay because he picked on Legate who if innocent, could be easy to build a case against. I did back off some on the suspicions, as I sensed a bandwagon building on him and if he were innocent, could be the work of wolves and didn't want to be caught up in it (which is apparently the post that several including Rikae found to be suspicious). He voted second for me, which is before the bandwagon against me really began and while I disagree with his reasons, from his perspective, I do actually find them to be valid. No, I did not intentionally copy Rikae's list, but I also didn't do a good job at giving reasons to suspect the people on my list and after reviewing my posts, I suppose backing off on him didn't look great either. After re-reviewing his posts, I do find Pitchwife to be more genuine and if I were to guess, I'd think him innocent.

--

Shasta: In post #188, he predicts G55-cobbler, Rikae-innocent. Is that Shasta being psychic again? He questions Greenie's thinking in post #197, then more so in post #211. He ends up voting Pitch for it appears his comment on Eonwe in #174. Mentions he doesn't like Greenie's and Eonwe's throwaway votes.

Impressions: Shasta's style is short and to the point, but he does give his opinions. I don't really understand his vote for Pitch. Because Pitch put down Eonwe's list as too wishy-washy...or am I missing something here?

--

Oh good grief, have I really only done four people? I'm gonna be up all night getting this done.

To be continued...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I think I am gonna take a page out of Pervinca's book and 'disappear'.

Uh, does this mean you want to quit the game? I understand it might be a little overwhelming for someone who hasn't played it before, but you can still consider. (I wanted to say "We don't bite" but err... some of us might, it's sort of the point. )

Originally Posted by Lhuna

I don't know about you guys, but I think determining who joins Cobb55 in the QT shouldn't be a main factor for a wolf kill.

Ditto. Also, Rikae and Galadriel55 are two adult people who had an argument during a game where such things happen regularly, not to mention when one of their role was to deliberately sow chaos. The wolves, nor anyone else of us, are not required to nanny the dead. Come on.

Originally Posted by Boro

Excluding Rikae's vote, Pitch's vote for Brinn, looks the most innocent to me. It came before the really either "wagon" developed.

And why would a vote look innocent simply if it's early? A wolf might want to get the voting business out of hand and slip out of scrutiny early too.

Originally Posted by Boro

sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.

Wait, what? You say that "everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim" (I agree), then you still go on to say that this still depends on Brinn's role? I mean, unless you have a good reason to think a ranger claimant is lying, you do vote to save them regardless your own role and that of the other lynch options? Even if you are a wolf because it's "what an innocent would do" + as solid reason to vote someone as they come. I don't think Sally's vote says anything about her role, or Brinn's. Except Sally probably isn't the seer who dreamt that Brinn is the real ranger. (Addendum: I see Greenie basically said this much too.)

Paranoid!Mac is back and even more paranoid. Is he trying to look so paranoid that we will let him off the hook? I'm not buying his "perhaps the wolves framed me" theory. Setting someone up might be a nice bonus for the wolves at this point, but I very much doubt that was the main reason for them going for Rikae.

Not sure either what to make of Boro's conviction that innocent!Rikae laid a trap and Brinnwolf walked into it. I need to reread Rikae's posts to see if it really looks like that. While I agree with Boro that the wolves are unlikely to be motivated by the want to frame someone (as I said about Mac), I think it's somewhat dangerous to operate on the basis that you know who the wolves suspected to be a seer. I mean, Mac seems to be convinced it's him not Brinn that the kill points at. Personally I am unsure because I haven't still reread Rikae's posts. But perhaps Boro or Mac has been reading them more carefully overNight.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Scenario 1. The wolves thought Rikae was gifted. But if they though them the seer, then they know that they didn't dream of me. Really, people. Are some of you really suggesting that a wolf-version of me would be dumb enough to go after Rikae because I thought they were the seer? I don't know if any wolves would be so jumpy this early in the game. In a village of 20+, it would be very lucky indeed if the seer dreamt of a wolf on Night 1.

Yes, but it's also entirely possible. I see you're arguing you'd be more chill and take the risk of not killing them if you were a wolf (fair enough), but perhaps you disagreed with your packmates and you weren't the one to send in the kill? Or perhaps you didn't realise how easily the death would be traced back to you?

Originally Posted by Brinn

Scenario 2. Rikae's death was a way to frame me.

Here we go again.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

First, about my vote: there's not much more to say other than that I was on very limited time and had only managed to catch up to post #212, which was the most recent post when I arrived (as mentioned in my post). I did do a refresh just to see votes before making my final choice, but at that point we were still on page 6 and no-one had more than 2 votes so it was all still open (and I really didn't have time to look to see if I'd x-posted or not).

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

One thing I'm wondering about is the very very late timing of the G55 reveal. The options, at increasing levels of bluff, seem to be:

She was trying to get an innocent Brinn killed.
She wanted us to believe (1), but actually thought Brinn was an Infector and knew it was too late.
She wanted us to believe (2), but actually thought that Brinn was innocent and wants us to suspect her by assuming (2) is true.

I think she just wanted to 1) save herself possibly (and in doing so, sacrifice Brinn which just says she didn't think her a particularly likely wolf), 2) possibly flush out the real ranger, and 3) cause chaos. Why not do it earlier? Maybe she didn't think she'd actually get lynched, or it didn't cross her mind until then. I wouldn't spend too much time on this.


edit: xed with 2x greenie and 2x legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Wait, what? You say that "everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim" (I agree), then you still go on to say that this still depends on Brinn's role? I mean, unless you have a good reason to think a ranger claimant is lying, you do vote to save them regardless your own role and that of the other lynch options? Even if you are a wolf because it's "what an innocent would do" + as solid reason to vote someone as they come. I don't think Sally's vote says anything about her role, or Brinn's. Except Sally probably isn't the seer who dreamt that Brinn is the real ranger. (Addendum: I see Greenie basically said this much too.)

Indeed. Can you explain that, Boro?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

As for Legate returning to the fake votes, I want to scream NOT AGAIN, but then again, perhaps something interesting can be gleaned from them, if one has the stomach...

Well, I just thought, after all the hassle that thing caused, it would be absolutely the silver lining of it all if we just forgot they ever existed and let them rot there...

[Boromir88]

Rikae -> Brinniel
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel (2)
---30 min mark----
Kath -> G55 (2)
Inzil -> G55 (3)
Lottie -> G55 (4)
THE Ka -> Brinniel (3)
----15 min mark----
Rune -> Brinniel (4)
Lommy -> G55 (5)
Huines -> G55 (6)
Legate -> Brinn (5)
Macalaure -> Brinn (6)
Brinniel -> G55 (7)
Sally -> Brinn (7) (after "ranger reveal")

Ok, so I took out those who didn't vote for either G55/Brinn. 2 wagons that big had to have wolf involvement.

As noted already today, Steve's and Greenie's throw away votes came within the 30 minute mark. Looks of "not wanting to get their hands dirty." At the same time, can't tell if they're too suspicious without knowing Brinn's role.

Excluding Rikae's vote, Pitch's vote for Brinn, looks the most innocent to me. It came before the really either "wagon" developed.

Then came 3 straight votes for G55 (Kath, Inzil, Lottie). If Brinn's a wolf, this would be a prime spot to try to save a Brinnwolf. Kath's vote looks less suspicious as a "save Brinnwolf" vote, because she had early established suspicion of G55. Also, Inzil, and Lottie had made their votes for G55 after already knowing Kath's vote.

If Brinn's a wolf that mates were trying to save. Inzil andLottie's votes are the worst. (Rikae also in their final post to us pointed out the growing "let's not start a wagon against Brinn sentiments - pointing to Huey, Inzil and Lottie). If Brinn's innocent, Inzil and Lottie's vote still look suspicious, because by pushing forward G55, with under 30 minutes to go it kind of boxed us into 2 choices.

My head is going to hurt trying to unpack all those 15 minutes and under votes. Could be a wolf in there, but it's hard to tell with people voting and cross-voting. I'd have to look closer at their established reasons.

Rune asked someone why they were suspicious of Brinn at some point prior to his vote and he seemed to accept it. Doesn't look suspicious.

Brinn's vote is neutral. Self-preservation can't determine suspicion either way.

sally's vote strikes me as a little suspect. In the spur of the moment with such little time, I think everyone would have to accept G55's ranger claim. But if Brinn's not a wolf, sally's vote is the most suspicious.

If Brinn's a wolf. The most suspicious voters:

Inzil
Lottie

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

Edit: cross posted since back somewhere on Page 8. Phew

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

G55 had been my only real suspect all Day. The sudden push for Brinn made me wonder if someone wasn't trying to save a Galwolf.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If Brinn's a wolf. The most suspicious voters:

Inzil
Lottie

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

I'd been saying that G55 (and, to a lesser degree, Pitch) was my first choice all Day. I also was starting to suspect Mac and therefore to see the Brinnwagon in a sinister light, so I definitely wanted my top suspects over a player I thought was being pushed by a wolf. If Brinn does turn out to be a wolf, I'd be wrong, yeah, but I'd been pushing G55 over Brinn all Day, it wasn't a last minute shift to try to save anyone.

[Urwen]

It's times like these that I wish I were wolf. I would play better as one, as my experience shows

[Macalaure]

To prove that I’m not crazy, or at least not that crazy.

(I will mostly refer to post numbers instead of creating a 10-screens long post with 20 quotes.)

It started with Gala coming up with her fake vote thing. Legate took it up with excitement, though with a different spin, but Gala returned this excitement by calling him a cobbler in #38. I later said the same thing in #52:

Then Rikae made an error in #69, as I did not say I thought Legate looked infected, just cobblerish.

Originally Posted by Rikae

And G55 and Lommy have decided that Legate is a cobbler, and Inzil and Mac have suggested he's infected?

Then Gala comes out blazing in #71, quoting the above and challenging Rikae. I addressed it as well in #97, with somewhat less furor. Gala restates it in #127:

Originally Posted by Gala

And I jokingly called you out on deliberately summarizing incorrectly. This only serves to sow confusion and derail the village, or give people (you most of all) an excuse to vote based on, frankly, false grounds if the vote is based off this post. My point still stands.

In the same post she quotes my #97, telling me that there are other problems with Rikae's post, too, without elaborating. A minor attempt to try and side with me, the first of a few.

In #128 (crossing with Gala) Rikae understands what Gala meant in the first place. They check, see their error, and admit to it. That could have been that. Gala, however, doesn’t buy it, and over the next few posts between the two, some cross-posted, the argument slowly escalates. Over the course, Gala keeps “siding” with me several times, even though I didn’t mention anything about this since my one comment in #97.

Originally Posted by Gala, #137

I am waiting for a response from Rikae. Being curt is one thing, being deliberately wrong is another. And she just - sidesteps - the questioning from myself and Mac, like that post never happened.

#147:

Originally Posted by Gala, #147

Throw some unsupported shade on people, then dismiss half of it as a joke and half of it as an oopsy daisy, and the post gets forgiven but the shade remains. Actually, it was so bombastically inaccurate I am surprised only Mac called you out on it except for me.

#156:

Originally Posted by Gala, #156

Seriously? No one else except Mac has noticed anything wrong with that post?

Then in #166 I weigh in, accepting Rikae’s explanation and calling Gala’s case far-fetched, but at this point the fight is already all over the place.

.......

In her vote, Gala mentions other things, but following her posts, she very much started going after Rikae because they misrepresented something I said, thus exaggerating her suspicion of me. That's what everything spiraled out of control from. Gala must have thought Rikae was gifted, it makes no sense that she would go after them like that over that little reason if it was otherwise. A cobbler’s life isn’t worth much, but they tend to not go kamikaze this early without purpose.

Maybe she got hunter or ranger vibes from something, possible, but:
- it’s not unreasonable that seer-Rikae would pick me as their first dream.
- if you’re the seer and you know a wolf, what do you do? Keep quiet? Drop hints? Go all out and accuse? Try to subtly steer the village into lynching that wolf?
The way Rikae suspected me could fit the latter. Gala tried to associate herself with me several times, which makes me suspect that Gala thought so as well, a cobbler trying to reach out to who she thought was a wolf.

All of this was already on my mind during the Night and now Rikae is dead. Obviously, it’s a bit of a stretch for me to assume the wolves saw everything the same way. But here’s the thing - I got some fire late yesterDay from Greenie and a few. With a bit of a push, that case could gain momentum and get me lynched toDay - and an innocent lynched is a wolf not lynched.

I do realize that my slight paranoia might get me lynched, too.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If Brinn's not a wolf, I still find Inzil and Lottie's votes suspect, because that essentially made the lynch between G55/Brinn

This is a good point!

For reference, here is the vote count (borrowed from Nog's post with the last vote added):

Lhuna -> Lhuna
Rikae -> Brinniel
G55 -> Rikae
Boro -> Pitchwife
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel 2
Kath -> G55 2
Shasta -> Pitchwife 2
Kitanna -> Pitchwife 3
Inzil -> G55 3
Lottie -> G55 4
Greenie -> Macalaure
THE Ka -> Brinniel 3
Eönwë -> Urwen
Rune -> Brinniel 4
Lommy -> G55 5
Huines -> G55 6
Legate -> Brinn 5
Macalaure -> Brinn 6
Brinniel -> G55 7
Sally -> Brinniel



One thing that I don't think people have really addressed toDay is that Pitch was seriously on the chopping block yesterDay and then managed to get taken out of the running, and a large part of that was G55 becoming an eligible vote candidate due to Zil and Lottie.

As a side note, come to think of it, Boro writing the above post and not mentioning this specifically when Pitch was the only viable non-Brinn vote-candidate at the time, while also voting for Pitch and not including the full vote-list (and thus leaving others to find out for themselves) could suggest a potential arms-length Boro-Pitch Infector pairing, which is an interesting idea that I'm going to have to look into.

On the other hand, while I'm sure there are wolves hiding in both the late Brinn and G55 votes, I think some of the earlier votes look like they could also be interesting (for example Shasta and Kitanna's Pitch-waggon that temporarily made Pitch the most-voted), but I will need to look at them more closely when I have time.

However, if Brinn does turn out to be a wolf, THE Ka and Legate are potential candidates for treading the (Infector-y) just-risky-enough-to-not-seem-throwaway-but-not-directly-leading-to-packmate-being-quarantined vote line.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Also, Zil has just made me raise a big eyebrow in his general direction. *ping* (No, Mac, I'm not going to stop it!)

Elaborate, by all means.