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Old 04-03-2020, 12:22 PM   #1
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morthoron
Evidently the Rohirrim are a superstitious lot, and anything beyond their ken would be looked at suspiciously as "sorcery" (whether good, bad or indifferent), hence dwimmerlaik (dweomerlayk) as a nethworldly/shadowy presence capable of spell-casting accords with that distrust.
Very true, and they are right to be afraid of Galadriel, who is indeed perilous. As Gandalf says of Fangorn in The White Rider: "Dangerous! And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion".

However, unlike Saruman, who is described as "dwimmer-crafty", Galadriel doesn't receive a dwimmer- adjective. In any case, Tolkien doesn't invent the Rohirric dwimmer- vocabulary: all of it comes directly from Old English, so it would be the Anglo-Saxons who were superstitious and suspicious of the unknown. Since so much of the world was unknown to them, and much of the unknown in their day was lethally destructive, this should come as no great surprise.

Old English can be surprisingly technical (such as in the number of words it has for types of hill), so what would be the difference between, for example, searucraeft as in the HME IV OE Annals and dweomer-craeft? Is one more scientific and the other occult or closer to conjuring? I'm drawn to the idea of the dwimmerlaik as something phantasmal, insubstantial, even illusory and yet wielding a power in its voice. A good description for a Ringwraith, but it also raises an interesting parallel with Saruman.
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Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 04-04-2020 at 02:48 AM. Reason: Cross-posted. Edited for clarity
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:01 PM   #2
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Somewhere in my head I have the idea that -dene means 'wood', which means Wormtongue calls Lorien 'the forest of illusions'. It makes you wonder exactly what went on along the borders that kept mortal travellers out of the forest...
A dene is a wooded valley, so 'vale of sorcery'' or something like it would also be apt. I'm at a loss to see how else someone not familiar with the place could understand it. Its people are ageless and deathless, time passes there at an unpredictable and seemingly arbitrary rate and it contains species of flora not found anywhere else in the known world.

The word that causes Galadriel some difficulty is 'magic'. She says this to Sam:
Quote:
For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.

The Mirror of Galadriel
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Old 04-03-2020, 08:04 PM   #3
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"Magic," to the Elves was not something exceptional. Rather, it was something inherent in their nature; the way they manifest their power and skills. While not clear, it seems that Elven "magic" was neither good or bad, but rather part of their nature. Of course, the manner that the "magic" is used may determine whether it is evil or good in effect.

Dwimmer, as a prefix, seems to carry with it negative connotations. Not unlike the distinction between a sorcerer and a wizard. I am no philologist, but dwimmer, as used by Tolkien, is a modifier, almost like an adjective, that may best translate to "sorcerous."
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Old 04-04-2020, 09:49 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
"Magic," to the Elves was not something exceptional. Rather, it was something inherent in their nature; the way they manifest their power and skills. While not clear, it seems that Elven "magic" was neither good or bad, but rather part of their nature. Of course, the manner that the "magic" is used may determine whether it is evil or good in effect.

Dwimmer, as a prefix, seems to carry with it negative connotations. Not unlike the distinction between a sorcerer and a wizard. I am no philologist, but dwimmer, as used by Tolkien, is a modifier, almost like an adjective, that may best translate to "sorcerous."
Yes, I've been pondering the adjective angle too, since Squatter so rudely made me come out of my quarantine-induced coma and actually start thinking rather than looking at cute puppy memes on Facebook.

And I think we can all agree the prefix "dwimmer" refers to sorcery, hence "dwimmer-crafty" and "dwimmerdene" as a sorcerous vale/forested valley (more on dwimmerdene in a later post); but the suffix "laik" is where I started considering optional definers. And I couldn't help but consider the OE term "lich" (ie., corpse, body) had some sort of interrelationship in Tolkien's mind with "laik" as a variation.

I wonder if it is one of Tolkien's hidden philological puns. I mean, if one looks up etymological info on "laik", one gets at least one derivation from Proto-Germanic *laiką (“game, dance, hymn, sport, fight”) -- and the "dance" aspect is what intrigued me. Not so much the dancing aspect as the actual movement/exercise/action of dance.

Then there is "Lich": also litch, lych, "body, corpse," a southern England dialectal survival of Old English lic "body, dead body, corpse," from Proto-Germanic *likow (source also of Old Frisian lik, Dutch lijk, Old High German lih, German Leiche "corpse, dead body," Old Norse lik, Danish lig, Swedish lik, Gothic leik), probably originally "form, shape," and identical with like (adj.).

Perhaps I am just riffing off other ideas and spouting nonsense (which, in my case, is highly likely), but when Eowyn refers to the WitchKing as a "Dwimmerlaik", is this Tolkien saying the WiKi is a sorcerous animated (ie., dancing) corpse?
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Old 04-04-2020, 10:46 AM   #5
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I don't know if Tolkien is, but Éowyn might be. The context marks this as a term of scorn.

I should probably have put in a translation of the laik component as well. In Middle English it can take the form -layk or -laik (the latter being the closer to its origins), and it does indeed mean 'play'. In a sense, though, the Witch-king is a plaything of the Necromancer; you could call him a puppet of the Black Hand.

Going back to Galadriel's words about magic, I think it could be significant that all the way back to Old English there seems to be little or no distinction between actual sorcery and conjuring tricks, even juggling. Is this just Galadriel to Sam or also Tolkien to all English speakers?
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:58 PM   #6
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Going back to Galadriel's words about magic, I think it could be significant that all the way back to Old English there seems to be little or no distinction between actual sorcery and conjuring tricks, even juggling. Is this just Galadriel to Sam or also Tolkien to all English speakers?
Interesting question. It is certainly a fitting statement by Galadriel to Sam, and by extension by Tolkien to the readers of his subcreation. But is he making this statement in a broad sense; magic is not evil, it depends upon what you do with it? Maybe, but I am not certain that this fits within his Catholic sensibilities.

Within his subcreation, Eru created Elves and Men (and indirectly Ents, Dwarves, etc.) as they were intended to be. Thus Elves, as part of their nature, have powers that mere, superstitious Men would call "magic." Elves do not think that "magic" is evil, it just is. Men, at least those not educated in the ways of Elves, naturally fear that which is different or strange and might shun the supernatural. This fits and works in Middle Earth.

But did Tolkien intend some broader applicability (word choice intentional)? Somehow, I doubt it. But then again I have not read On Fairy Stories in some time...
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Old 04-04-2020, 01:33 PM   #7
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As luck would have it, I was skimming through Letters earlier (looking for something else that wasn't there), and found this.

Quote:
I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic', and especially the use of the word... I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction between magia and goeteia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specifically about it) domination of other 'free' wills.

Letters #155 (draft)
A footnote goes on to explain that goeteia is Greek for 'sorcery' and that English goety (a loan from Greek) is witchcraft by incantation, the use of spirits or necromancy (emphasis mine).
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