'Obscure Character(s) you dislike most' by Sauron 666

[Urwen]

I disagree. She was supposed to redeem Numenor, not destroy it, unlike her power-greedy idiot husband. He elevated Sauron to his chief councilor, after all. And we know what happened to last three people who let someone with an evil heart advise them. Then again, he himself had an evil heart too. As one fan put it: 'Who does he think he is - Maeglin?'

For he too married his close kin. He was surrounded by like-minded people, who cheered for his act of marrying close kin like it is nothing out of the ordinary, despite there being a precedent to it being unacceptable (Silmarillion, chapter 16).

That might be part of the reason I hate him, actually. He was lauded for this, while Lomion - his predecessor - fell into infamy for attempting to do the same thing. Another reason is Tar-Miriel herself, as he took her chance to rule (and redeem the land and it's people) away from her. Say what you want about me, but I stand by the characters I like.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I disagree.

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. By 'from a Numenorean perspective' I meant that most of Numenor was King's Men by this point, so a second ruler from the Faithful would be a bad thing from their point of view.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. By 'from a Numenorean perspective' I meant that most of Numenor was King's Men by this point, so a second ruler from the Faithful would be a bad thing from their point of view.

hS

Not to be mean or anything, but I don't care what they think.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Not to be mean or anything, but I don't care what they think.

That's okay; I doubt they worry overmuch about your opinions either.

It's still an interesting question: if Ancalime, Telperien, and Vanimelde had been good rulers, would even the King's Men have been more inclined to press for Tar-Miriel to be allowed to take the sceptre in her own right? Would she have been more able to leverage her position to refuse Pharazon's demand of marriage? That very much does depend on how they think.

(Of course, if Ancalime had been nicer, her granddaughter would probably have been the second Ruling Queen, and the whole Line of Numenor would be different. So maybe it's best not to think too hard about it...)

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That's okay; I doubt they worry overmuch about your opinions either.

It's still an interesting question: if Ancalime, Telperien, and Vanimelde had been good rulers, would even the King's Men have been more inclined to press for Tar-Miriel to be allowed to take the sceptre in her own right? Would she have been more able to leverage her position to refuse Pharazon's demand of marriage? That very much does depend on how they think.

(Of course, if Ancalime had been nicer, her granddaughter would probably have been the second Ruling Queen, and the whole Line of Numenor would be different. So maybe it's best not to think too hard about it...)

hS

'If X was in a different situation, would they have turned out differently?'

For most of my favorites, and many others, the answer would have been 'yes'. And that's why we have fanfiction. For instance, I can imagine Tar-Miriel ruling as she should've; I could imagine Curse of Morgoth being lifted; I can imagine Lomion as a good person; I can imagine Maedhros with both hands intact etc., but that's neither here nor there.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

'If X was in a different situation, would they have turned out differently?'

For most of my favorites, and many others, the answer would have been 'yes'. And that's why we have fanfiction. For instance, I can imagine Tar-Miriel ruling as she should've; I could imagine Curse of Morgoth being lifted; I can imagine Lomion as a good person; I can imagine Maedhros with both hands intact etc., but that's neither here nor there.

But "if X was in this specific different situation, how would they have turned out differently?" is a fun question (as is the reverse: "how would X's situation have to change to get them to turn out in this way?"). Numenor was a pretty nasty place by Tar-Miriel's time, and I'm not at all sure small shifts would make much of a difference. If the King's Men are powerful, and Pharazon is their leader, it's very hard to give Miriel the sceptre.

(The simplest shift might actually be to kill her father sooner! Pharazon was in Middle-earth until a few years earlier, when his father died unexpectedly. If Gimilkhad was still alive when Tar-Palantir died, the rebellion against Tar-Miriel would have looked very different. You might end up with Pharazon and Miriel as opposing rulers in a civil war, with Miriel taking refuge in Andunie...)

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But "if X was in this specific different situation, how would they have turned out differently?" is a fun question (as is the reverse: "how would X's situation have to change to get them to turn out in this way?"). Numenor was a pretty nasty place by Tar-Miriel's time, and I'm not at all sure small shifts would make much of a difference. If the King's Men are powerful, and Pharazon is their leader, it's very hard to give Miriel the sceptre.

(The simplest shift might actually be to kill her father sooner! Pharazon was in Middle-earth until a few years earlier, when his father died unexpectedly. If Gimilkhad was still alive when Tar-Palantir died, the rebellion against Tar-Miriel would have looked very different. You might end up with Pharazon and Miriel as opposing rulers in a civil war, with Miriel taking refuge in Andunie...)

hS

Pharazon could have been removed permanently too. All in takes is one individual slipping in, slitting his throat in his sleep, and slipping out. His death would mean the sceptre would fall to his closest living relative: his wife. Namarie, Pharazon. Hello, redemption. One of Lords of Andunie could have done this. They would be ready to sacrifice their lives to protect Numenor.