The conspiracy just doesn't work!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ahh, but Merry also mentions the Enemy. Where did he learn about HIM? Not even the well-educated Frodo knew about him before his little Talk with Gandalf.

Also, what was the "lot of information" that Sam collected before he was "finally" caught? That's a bit like saying "Vasa did a lot of fighting before it was finally sunk."

[Galadriel55]

Oh, that part. My understanding was that Sam did report that last chunk of information but went mum since. You're right, it is an assumption I've been making, presumably to explain this contradiction. It's how I read the text, but I guess the text itself does not explain this.

[Formendacil]

I suppose it might depend when Sam made his last "report." We know that, on the day he was caught, Gandalf told Frodo about the Ring.

But we also know, from the same chapter:

Originally Posted by The Shadow of the Past

He was smoking now in silence, for Frodo was sitting still, deep in thought. Even in the light of morning he felt the dark shadow of the tidings Gandalf had brought. At last he broke the silence.

"Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring, Gandalf," he said. "And then you stopped, because you said that such matters were best left until daylight. Don't you think you had better finish now? You say the ring is dangerous, far more dangerous than I guess. In what way?"

Given how the entire chapter from this point on is a complex dump of information new to the reader, I wonder exactly what Frodo DID know at this point, since we as new readers seem to be encountering everything for the first time now, but Gandalf and him clearly talked about something the night before. And, if they did, it is certainly POSSIBLE that Sam overheard it--though we would also have to posit that he reported this information that same night (or very early the following morning).

Again, this is possible--maybe not likely, but it's certainly possible that Pippin could have been at the Green Dragon the night before for that purpose, Tookland being quite close, or any of the conspirators, really.

Speaking of whom, I know that Folco Boffin is really just a name-shadow of Hobbits from the earlier drafts, but he's listed as one of Frodo's friends of as much closeness as Fatty--why isn't he in the conspiracy? Is he just one point shy of levelling up to that? In other words, why these specific four: Frodo's two closest friends, his gardener, and their most timid, creature-comfortly friend?

There are no (obvious) canonical answers, but fertile ground for speculation--or fanfiction?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

When we are rankly speculating, we can invent any excuse!

Maybe Folco was a blabbermouth and they couldn't trust him to keep the secret.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Oh, that part. My understanding was that Sam did report that last chunk of information but went mum since. You're right, it is an assumption I've been making, presumably to explain this contradiction. It's how I read the text, but I guess the text itself does not explain this.

I'd tend to agree with this idea: it was, after all, the collecting that Sam is said to have felt himself on parole from, not the passing on of the information.

To put it another way: Hobbits set a great deal by contracts. Sam had a contract of sorts with the Conspiracy, which he ended once he was discovered. However, to refuse to hand over work already done under the contract at the time of cancellation would be not just to end the contract, but to breach it.

I can very easily imagine Sam squirming in front of the eager Merry and Pippin, saying something like, "And, well... that was when Mister Gandalf caught me, if you take my meaning - by the ear, it was. And it, it don't seem right telling anything they said after that. Meaning no offense, Mister Merry, but the Master's taken me into his confidence now, and I'm not about to break that without his say-so." After which no amount of prodding will get another word out of him.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'd tend to agree with this idea: it was, after all, the collecting that Sam is said to have felt himself on parole from, not the passing on of the information.

To put it another way: Hobbits set a great deal by contracts. Sam had a contract of sorts with the Conspiracy, which he ended once he was discovered. However, to refuse to hand over work already done under the contract at the time of cancellation would be not just to end the contract, but to breach it.

I can very easily imagine Sam squirming in front of the eager Merry and Pippin, saying something like, "And, well... that was when Mister Gandalf caught me, if you take my meaning - by the ear, it was. And it, it don't seem right telling anything they said after that. Meaning no offense, Mister Merry, but the Master's taken me into his confidence now, and I'm not about to break that without his say-so." After which no amount of prodding will get another word out of him.

hS

Frodo: "If you really care about me, you will keep that dead secret. See? If you don't, if you even breathe a word of what you've heard here, then I hope Gandalf will turn you into a toad and fill the garden with grass-snakes."

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Ahh, but Merry also mentions the Enemy. Where did he learn about HIM? Not even the well-educated Frodo knew about him before his little Talk with Gandalf.

Also, what was the "lot of information" that Sam collected before he was "finally" caught? That's a bit like saying "Vasa did a lot of fighting before it was finally sunk."

But Sam may have done even if he didn’t fully understand the significance. Who knows what stories of the Elves were told him by Bilbo while he was learning his letters. He knew of Gil-galad and presumably had heard more of the “Fall of Gil-Galad” and found it disturbing enough not to want to commit it to memory.

I think Merry as son of the Master probably was quite well educated though not in the was Frodo was like Bilbo. While most hobbit books were genealogical, anything that wasn’t, was most likely at Great Smials or Brandy Hall. We know he bothered to look at maps and so forth and that Bucklanders were less insular than most. That said, this issue has puzzled me before.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Ahh, but Merry also mentions the Enemy. Where did he learn about HIM? Not even the well-educated Frodo knew about him before his little Talk with Gandalf.

Also, what was the "lot of information" that Sam collected before he was "finally" caught? That's a bit like saying "Vasa did a lot of fighting before it was finally sunk."

The Red Book mentions the Necromancer, and Frodo had read that, or some of it. My understanding was that Frodo knew of Sauron, but not that he had arisen again.

Ian Holm's Frodo says 'But stories are told of Sauron's fall, long, long ago,' but that was probably an alteration, made to make it more of a conversation and load Gandalf with a little less exposition.