Ambarkanta

[ArcusCalion]

World: I think to impose the World = Ea; world = Arda distinction is artificial and too needlessly editorial. How is this:

Amb-02 <moved from below {For the World}The Creation, Eä, is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time.> About all {the World}Eä are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of {the World}Creation.

I agree to the rest of them Fin, they look wonderful.

[gandalf85]

The usage of World: OK, I agree with you guys, we should just leave "World" and "world" as unspecific. It would indeed be needlessly editorial.

Melkor returning over the Walls of Night: I like the "soup bowl" metaphor, but it seems strange that the Valar would set Earendil to watch the Door of Night if Melkor can simply return at any point over the "rim" whenever he wants. I missed your comment about it being something not physical, Fin. I think that's the best explanation. Melkor biding his time would also make sense.

Gates of Morning: You're right, this is ambiguous enough so it should be fine to leave it as is in the Akallabeth.

Amb-06 and Amb-06.1 I agree to these changes, I think this makes it clearer.

Amb-06.2: Oh, I get it now. Yes, I agree to Gondowe's proposed change. "In the time" is nice and vague.

Amb-08.5b: I see why you made your original change now. This is indeed more clear.

Diagrams and Maps: I agree we would have to edit them slightly if we decide to include them. I mentioned Fonstad's maps mostly as a compliment to her and using her as a contrast to the "lungs map" (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/wp-conten...nds_color.jpeg) which boggles my mind every time I see it. Numenor isn't even a star!

Amb-02: Upon reflection, since we are going to use "World" in an unspecific way, I think it's better the way Fin has it. Adding in "Creation" like that feels like too much of an editorial intrusion on our part.

[ArcusCalion]

Amb-02: very well, leaving it as is works fine.

Maps: Gods the lung map... it gives me extreme stress whenever I see it because I think of all the people who have been led astray by it.

[Findegil]

I can only emphasis the compliment to Fonstad, The Historical Atlas is one of my favourite pieces of secondary literature on Tolkien’s World.
And yes, the contrast to the “lungs map” could not be greater. I first set my eyes on that ridiculous thing in black and white print in David Day’s “Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia” (in the German translation, loan from a public libary, later unhappily I got the book as a gift). Even back then when I had not read more of Tolkien then The Hobbit, LotR and Sil77 I observed how obviously wrong this map was. In some aspects (like the Star shape of Numenor) the Author is not to be blaimed, because the work was really drawn quiet early, when Sil77 was the only source for the First and Second Age. But other aspects like the relative placing of Beleriand and Eriador or the freely placed features in ‘Undaying Lands’ he should have known better. In its over all composition this map skips one very important dimension: time. It draws together every thing that is every mention in all the ages of Arda. This concept could only lead to a worng picture. None the less the map had a lasting influence: Until The Shaping of Middle-Earth was published I think the shape of the western continent was in may maps based more or less on the shape it has in this map.

Eärendil and the Door of Night: It is not like Eärendil standing guard at the portal. He is sailing in Vingilot upon Ilmen, I suppose. And that means he is more or less patrolling all the wide area (nearly a half-globe) of Vaiya where there is no Wall of Night.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

With that, I think this chapter is done! Fin, can you update it on the outline?

[Findegil]

I have started to work on the Diagrams and Maps. I got relatively good scans of the them. First a view general points:

1. I am not willing to redraw all the Maps and Diagrams. Therefore I think we should use the original reproductions as given in HoME IV.

2. Readability of Tolkien’s hand writing on the reproductions is pure. I think we should remove all this and replace it by some printed font. ‘Rockwell’ is nearest to the font used on the map in the LotR that I had on my computer. Or do we give a list of all things written as Christopher Tolkien did in e.g. HoME IV; Map V and make or ubdates by copying letters?

3. As a matter of fact we have to change some things. But the question is how far do we go with this. I give her under a list of things I have changed already and would wish to hear your comments on these and any additional feature you think should be amended.

I have started on Map V, which seems must difficult, since it is very rough and missing many essesnsital features, which we must added. In addition the covering of the lables is most difficult since the backround is flecked and smired grey.
This Map must represent the state between the War of the Powers (Melkor captured in Utumno) and the War of Wrath (Angband destroyed). It is clearly only a rough sketch. Nonetheless we must work on it and with it:
- I added Anduin and the Hithaeglir. For that I reconstructed first Tolkiens Map for the LotR that is given in HoME VII. Then I stitched it together with the map from Sil77 by bringing the Ered Luin of the First Age into agreement to that of the Third and fitting as good as possible Tol Fuin and Himling to Dorthonion and Himring. This combined Map I overlaid to Map V by fitting it to Hithlum, Dorthonion and the upper part of Ered Luin. (I wondered how nicely they fitted all together. The only feature that did not match nicely was the course of Duin Daer (Gelion), which is in the larger scale map from Sil77 much farther from the mountains. The coast line south of the Bay of Balar for example looked like a natural prolongation of the Sil77 map. One strange observation by the way: The coast line on the northern extent ion of the Map from HoME VII (Tolkien’s LotR map) is about the distance of the length of the Hithaeglir farther North than the northern most point on Map V!) Anduin does naturally flow into the Inland Sea and maybe we have to generalise the course of the river a bit more. Please let me know your opinion about that.
- Tol Eressëa is missing completely on this map. I added it beside the magic Isle and the shadowy Isle, by combining Map IV to Map V by fitting the cost lines of Aman.
- I would not add any farther details: In the original there are no woods so Mirkwood would be unwanted. Since we have no representation of the Third Age Iron Hills and The Sea of Rhun lay a bit north of the Inland Sea on Map V I would not add either of these. For Luhn, Baranduin or Mitheithel/Gwathló we have no idea if they cut through the Southern Ered Luin or if they rounded the Hithaeglir in the South and flowed into the Inland Sea. I find the later more probable. But since we don’t know we should not add them.
- The false start of drawing the last part of the course of Duin Daer (Gelion, the southern crossed out branch) should go.
I don’t see any other feature that was clearly ‘marked for deletion’ by Tolkien, but their might be some superficial lines:
- In Beleriand we have what looks like a false start at the coast line from the mouth of Sirion to the mouth of the crossed out ‘branch’ of Duin Daer (Gelion), I think we should remove that.
- There is a line running straight north-south crossing Hithlum and going into the bay of Balar just at the mouth of Sirion. In Hithlum it might be Rivers running into Lake Mithrim and in its southern part this might be a bad representation of Narog. We might let it stand. Please give me your opinion about it.
- One question is if we should add the ‘Yellow Mountains’. It could of course be that they were destroyed / removed during the War of Powers. But I find it equally possible that they were just forgotten on Map V. If you think we should add them please give as well some indication of how you would find the right place.
The script on this Map is in part really hard to read. Therefore I decided to remove them completely and give the following label in a font near to that used on the maps from LotR. On the original map we have some labels written in a bow (AMAN; HITHER LANDS and Walls of the Sun). I have tried to catch the bows more or less.
What follows is how I worked with the labels:
- Angband
- Daidelos => Dor Daedeloth
- Thangorodrim
- Hithlum
- Beleriand
- We have the 3 acronyms ‘S’ for South in the middle of the continent ‘Africa’ and again as ‘S.’ in the South of the continent, ‘N’ for North in what would become Eriador and ‘NW’ for North-West in southern East-Beleriand. At least the northern ‘S’ must go. But I would remove them all.
- Inland Sea
- H I T H E R L A N D S
- Straits of the World
- Helcaraxe => Helcaraxë
- Beleglorn Great Gulf => Belfalas Great Gulf
- Great Seas
- Alflon => Aqualondë
- (Belegaer)
- The 2 old English names Utgarsecg and Ingarsecg should be removed.
- Bay of Fary => Bay of Eldamar
- I would add ‘Tol Eressëa’
- Eruman => Araman
- Outer Lands (Valinor)
- Two Trees
- Tún => Túna
- Valimar
- Taniqetil => Taniquetil
- Arvalin => Avathar
- The stroked out name Eruman south of the Bay of Fary should also be removed.
- A M A N
- Outer Seas
- East Sea
- Dark Land (South Land)
- Walls of the Sun (I moved this nearer to the mountains to generate some space for the next entry.)
- Burnt Land of the Sun (This label I turned and moved and bowed to fit it inside the continent it belongs to.)
- Outer Seas
- The text in the upper right corner reads: ‘After the War of the Gods (Arvalin was cast up by the Great Sea at the foot of the Mts.’ I think we change this to: ‘After the War of the Powers Araman was cast up by the Great Sea at the foot of the Mountains.’

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Wow, that sounds like a lot of work! That's really cool, Fin! Responding to your points.

1. That seems reasonable to start. We can try to finalize what we wish to change/include, and if we wanted, somebody could re-create the maps for a final version.

2. I'd have to see how it looked to decide if a printed font works. I think changing it on the map directly is the best idea. They cost money, but the fonts from https://www.mytolkienbooks.com/tolkien-fonts/ would probably work best.

3. Map V is indeed pretty rough.

- Not sure I entirely understand your question about the Anduin, I may need to look at the map itself to understand it.

- Adding in Tol Eressëa and the shadowy Isle by combining Maps IV and V makes sense.

- I agree that adding things (like forests or other rivers) by guessing isn't in the spirit of the project, I would simply clean up what Tolkien himself drew.

- I agree with removing the attempt at the coast line from the mouth of the Sirion to the mouth of the crossed out branch of the Gelion.

- I agree with you assessment that this line appears to be the Narog, along with tributaries to Lake Mithrim. I say we let it stand.

- I think attempting to add the Yellow Mountains would involve too much guess work. It is reasonable to assume they were destroyed during the War of Powers.

- I agree with all of your textual/legend changes. I'm OK with simply removing the labels showing the cardinal directions (north, north-west and the two souths), they do not add much to the map and are situated in confusing locations.