Was Gandalf a Valar?

[Zigûr]

Interesting post/topic.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

1. Tolkien meant the order of the Ainur, not the Valar. Booo-ring!

I also think he used "Valar" sometimes in a poetic or figurative sense to refer to the Valar and Maiar collectively.

Professor Tolkien did also say in Letter 183 that Sauron was "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order", so if Gandalf is a Vala then Sauron and Saruman are too. In Letter 153 [CORRECTION: 156] he says that Sauron was "a lesser member of the race of Valar", although admittedly that could have been a shortcut to make an already complex narrative overview more digestible for his correspondent Rob Murray.

Sometimes I think it's not necessary to be too rigid about the delineation, really. Trying to determine what distinguished, say, Nessa from a prominent Maia like Ilmarë or Ossë seems to involve role, responsibility and position as well as any sense of "potency". Perhaps being a Maia is more like a job than a "species"?

Wikipedia claims that in "Words, Phrases and Passages", which was published in Parma Eldalamberon 17, Professor Tolkien stated that "Maia is the name of the Kin of the Valar, but especially of those of lesser power than the 9 great rulers." If this is the case, perhaps the distinction is really quite hazy.

[mhagain]

No no no no no.


The Valar and Maiar are of the same order: they are both Ainur who were created before the world and who came into the world when it was made real.


So any statement about "of the same order" as the Valar can be taken as also including the Maiar.


The only difference between a Vala and a Maia (note the correct singular forms) is degree of power. To quote from the Valaquenta:

Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time .... The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar.... With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers.

Vala/Valar and Maia/Maiar are not taxonomic classifications; they merely describe a placing in a hierarchy based on degree of power, but Valar and Maiar are otherwise the same class of being.


What was Gandalf?

Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves; Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus; in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.

So he was, or at least claimed to be, a being named Olórin, but what was Olórin?

Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin .... In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

The important thing to realise is that this text was not written by CJRT; the original Valaquenta text is given in HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring, and likewise identifies Olórin as one of the Maiar.

[Morthoron]

It is a matter of semantics. Valar and Maiar are of the same order; however, the Valar are specifically listed and there are 14 (with perhaps a 15th if one counts Melkor), whereas the Maiar are multiform and are as disparate as the Istari and the Balrogs.

[Galin]

In Glorfindel I (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) for example, the word Maiar is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

In the same text (I) Gandalf is referred to as Gandalf-Olorin.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Galin

In Glorfindel I (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) for example, the word Maiar is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

In the same text (I) Gandalf is referred to as Gandalf-Olorin.

I will have to read last writings and I will be ordering it soon to comment further. This is from a footnote and not the main text says something to me. This might not be cannon to me.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by mhagain

No no no no no.


The Valar and Maiar are of the same order: they are both Ainur who were created before the world and who came into the world when it was made real.


So any statement about "of the same order" as the Valar can be taken as also including the Maiar.


The only difference between a Vala and a Maia (note the correct singular forms) is degree of power. To quote from the Valaquenta:
Vala/Valar and Maia/Maiar are not taxonomic classifications; they merely describe a placing in a hierarchy based on degree of power, but Valar and Maiar are otherwise the same class of being.


What was Gandalf?
So he was, or at least claimed to be, a being named Olórin, but what was Olórin?
The important thing to realise is that this text was not written by CJRT; the original Valaquenta text is given in HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring, and likewise identifies Olórin as one of the Maiar.

I will dig into it more [just brought it back to the library i will be buying a copy soon] but it seemed pretty clear to refer to him as a valar [not just of the same order] witch is why Christopher wrote it was a mistake.

As for olorin

The argument of course that Gandalf was a maiar comes from his identification as Olórin. However even here does not prove him a maiar.

“That Gandalf said that his name “in the west” had been Olórin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an Incognito, a mere by name. I do not [of course] know the truth of the matter.”
-Unfinished tales

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Interesting post/topic.


I also think he used "Valar" sometimes in a poetic or figurative sense to refer to the Valar and Maiar collectively.

Professor Tolkien did also say in Letter 183 that Sauron was "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order", so if Gandalf is a Vala then Sauron and Saruman are too. In Letter 153 he says that Sauron was "a lesser member of the race of Valar",

I scanned 153 are you sure its in that letter?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

I scanned 153 are you sure its in that letter?

My mistake. I should have said 156.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

In Glorfindel I (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) for example, the word Maiar is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

This is of course the key point: regardless of how fun the Gandalf-Vala notion is, Tolkien was both clear and consistent that he wasn't.

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

Interesting insight, but I did not see Gandalf speaking to Manwe. Where did you see that?

Somewhere in Tolkien's files there is the most amazing sheet of paper. In UT, Christopher says 'On the reverse of the isolated page containing the narrative of the choice of the Istari by the Valar appears the following very remarkable note', and then gives the text I've used for my 'Gandalf cult' theory'. The 'narrative of the choice' is summarised earlier, and says this:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

I think you already noticed this, but that's Olorin speaking directly to Manwe. The trouble with your idea that Olorin isn't Gandalf, is that Olorin only exists in the narrative to be Gandalf. He's not a pre-existing character who was later equated with him - the name was first written down in LotR itself, and every other version is an attempt to explain it.

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

How are you copy pasting online from UT? let me in on your lore I wish to join. Did you find them online free? I found his letters.

^_^ I wouldn't actually be averse to typing these quotes out, but I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), so it's easier to find a copy online. Simply Googling 'Unfinished Tales text' usually pops something up.

hS

[Rhun charioteer]

I think the evidence is pretty clear Gandalf is a Maia, Maiar and Valar are both Ainur so they are the same "essence" or "group"

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This is of course the key point: regardless of how fun the Gandalf-Vala notion is, Tolkien was both clear and consistent that he wasn't.



Somewhere in Tolkien's files there is the most amazing sheet of paper. In UT, Christopher says 'On the reverse of the isolated page containing the narrative of the choice of the Istari by the Valar appears the following very remarkable note', and then gives the text I've used for my 'Gandalf cult' theory'. The 'narrative of the choice' is summarised earlier, and says this:



I think you already noticed this, but that's Olorin speaking directly to Manwe. The trouble with your idea that Olorin isn't Gandalf, is that Olorin only exists in the narrative to be Gandalf. He's not a pre-existing character who was later equated with him - the name was first written down in LotR itself, and every other version is an attempt to explain it.



^_^ I wouldn't actually be averse to typing these quotes out, but I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), so it's easier to find a copy online. Simply Googling 'Unfinished Tales text' usually pops something up.

hS

Yes it appears my conspiracy might not pan out very well. I refuse to give in so easy, more reading is needed.

As for manwe speaking to Olorin, that is ok with at least one possibility offered, that Manwe took his name as a incognito.