Transmission theory - what if it's ALL true?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

Well if the legendarium is true, that means a lot of cool things happened. Also we'd probably be able to find evidence of numenor under the ocean.

Slight topic shift, but sure: if the entire body of the Legendarium comes from genuine historical documents, what non-documentary evidence would we expect to find?

1. The Changing of the World. A massive event like the sinking of Numenor and the world being made round would leave a huge scar on the planet. Something like, maybe... the mid-Atlantic Ridge? Is this where Iluvatar spliced the new, spherical world together?

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

2. Multiple humanoid species in the fossil record. In addition to H. sapiens, Tolkien would lead us to expect a gracile elvish form (though these might be tricky to find, immortality being what it is), a more robust Orcish form, and a diminutive Hobbit/Dwarf form. And, what do you know: there are multiple rugged hominids in the fossil record (notably Neanderthals), and at least one half-sized species (Flores Man, nicknamed Hobbits). There's even evidence of Neanderthals cross-breeding with humans - the half-Orcs of Saruman.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

(We wouldn't expect to find trolls, of course - they turn to stone in sunlight. Dragons could be found, but they mostly lived in Beleriand - pardon me, Broseliand - which is under the North Atlantic. On which note...)

3. Evidence of sunken lands in the North Atlantic (ie, Broseliand). Legends of this kind abound, for instance the Lowland Hundred of Welsh myth. Notably, however, both the shallows around the Isles of Scilly (off Cornwall) and the English Channel itself were once above the sea. It might even be possible to connect Scilly to one of the Broseliandic islands (Tol Fuin, for instance), except for the next point.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

4. The relocation of the British Isles in Saxon times. The Golden Book is quite clear on this: Britain, including such locations as Warwick and Great Haywood, was over in the Undying Lands until about the 500s AD. Which seems problematic, given how well attested the Roman ownership of the islands is.

Or... is it? Mapping the locations in the Golden Book, we find that they're all in the west of Great Britain. Clearly, the elves crashed an Eressea made of Ireland, Wales, and south-west England into a more slender island that was already there; the 'Roman' evidence from those parts is actually Elvish. As a bonus, this explains why the Romans never bothered to invade Ireland: it didn't actually exist at the time.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

5. Memory of a land of bliss across the Western Sea. How many do you need? The Irish, the Greeks, there's no end of these stories. The Slavic heaven was located 'far away beyond the sea, at the end of the Milky Way' - a perfect description of Valinor.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

hS

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

2. Multiple humanoid species in the fossil record. In addition to H. sapiens, Tolkien would lead us to expect a gracile elvish form (though these might be tricky to find, immortality being what it is), a more robust Orcish form, and a diminutive Hobbit/Dwarf form. And, what do you know: there are multiple rugged hominids in the fossil record (notably Neanderthals), and at least one half-sized species (Flores Man, nicknamed Hobbits). There's even evidence of Neanderthals cross-breeding with humans - the half-Orcs of Saruman.

I think Neanderthals are closer to Dwarves. I mean, are Tolkien's Orcs really "robust"? I think of them (apart from Sauron and Saruman's specially-bred soldier-Orcs) as undersized and wretched.

I associated burly Orcs more with things like Warhammer and WarCraft.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I think Neanderthals are closer to Dwarves. I mean, are Tolkien's Orcs really "robust"? I think of them (apart from Sauron and Saruman's specially-bred soldier-Orcs) as undersized and wretched.

I associated burly Orcs more with things like Warhammer and WarCraft.

You may be right.

In which case, Homo naledi is probably the Orcs. ^_^

And if you don't like that one, I'll go with 'their subterranean dwellings make preservation unlikely'. ^_~

hS

[Galin]

gandalf85 wrote: I haven't really thought through all the details, but I like this theory. I've always liked to believe everything Tolkien wrote could be considered "canon" and the inconsistencies are due to translating from different sources.

I think Tolkien certainly wanted a multi-perspective legendarium, but creating such a thing is an art in itself, and glomping everything together (admittedly an over simplified description here, for brevity) ignores this.


While I find this fun and interesting to think about as a what if, in the end I can't accept this view of the legendarium. For me it turns something I find important, and something I think Tolkien found important, into a haphazard, unconsidered heap of inconsistencies -- and possibly a mountainous heap when one really starts paying attention.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

I think Tolkien certainly wanted a multi-perspective legendarium, but creating such a thing is an art in itself, and glomping everything together (admittedly an over simplified description here, for brevity) ignores this.


While I find this fun and interesting to think about as a what if, in the end I can't accept this view of the legendarium. For me it turns something I find important, and something I think Tolkien found important, into a haphazard, unconsidered heap of inconsistencies -- and possibly a mountainous heap when one really starts paying attention.

This is certainly a valid point, and to address my own idea critically, the Legendarium of the Book of Lost Tales changed repeatedly during the writing of it. So to adopt this approach in practice, you'd first need to conjure up a consistent 'canonical' BoLT - which Tolkien never wrote.

But... I still think that treating all Tolkien's writings as authentic ancient texts opens up a wealth of possibilities. To return to Beren, this setup gives us three wildly differing accounts of his romance with Luthien - the version told on Eressea, the poem held by Elrond, and the Numenorean account of the Quenta. Christopher Tolkien has done an admirable job of showing how and why the story developed between them - but as fans, I think there's immense potential in asking why, in-universe, the story was changed in these ways.

Is the Eressean version an aberration, heavily bowlderised for the children at the Cottage of Lost Play - one in which the tricky subject of elf-mortal relationships is sidestepped? Or did Elrond and Elros conspire to create a fictional, mortal Beren, to give themselves a link to the First House of Men? Have the Eresseans obliterated any mention of werewolves - or have the Numenoreans injected Sauron into a tale that he had no part in, to justify their wars against him? Or are these differences not deliberate, but a failure in transmission, with the stories actually being different reconstructions from the rumours out of Doriath and Ossiriand? (And that, in turn, would tell us about the mindsets of the people doing the reconstructing...)

Don't get me wrong - I will always stand by the 'canonical' Legendarium as the best, and if theorising about anything in it, 9 times out of 10 I'll be talking purely about that. But sometimes it can be fun to look at things from a different angle - the very multi-perspective legendarium you describe.

hS

[shadowfax]

Some interesting points and conjectures.

The making of a flat earth into a round earth would not have been possible without much deformation of the earth's crust. That would leave far more scars than just a couple of mid-ocean ridges. It would have seriously distorted geography and destroyed many things both man-made and natural. If you peel an orange and then try to spread the peel flat on a surface you cause the peel to tear, but you also rely on the peel's natural flexibility in adapting to the new shape. Without that flexibility and ability to stretch or compress, the tears would have to spread fractally over the entire surface. Making a round earth flat is the reverse of that and similarly requires both tearing and stretching and compression. Maybe the crust of the earth has that flexibility (or would briefly have been given it by Manwe), but suppose the foundation of your house suddently grows or shrinks by some millimetres, what then of the rest of the house? It will probably lose some stability. The closer you get to the polar regions, the greater the deformation. If you get a chain of buildings collapsing across the world, that would surely leave some memory in history or archaeology.

Furthermore, a flat earth opens many physical problems, such as how that can be reconciled with our understanding of gravity.

I thus propose that that never happened. Maybe the Earth was always round but people didn't realize it. What maybe did happen was that Arda was previously on the earth's surface and was removed to some other location. This would have required other lands or seas to have been created to fill its place. Maybe there was once more land in what is now the Atlantic?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by shadowfax

Furthermore, a flat earth opens many physical problems, such as how that can be reconciled with our understanding of gravity.

I don't see that in itself as a barrier. Our understanding of physics is based ultimately on our observations and extrapolations from therein. What we have never encountered is (obviously) not reflected in our models of the universe. Doesn't mean it can't happen, or doesn't exist. Our model of reality is only true until we encounter something in reality to contradict it; the lack of the encounter does not yet prove the infallibility of the model.

Originally Posted by shadowfax

The making of a flat earth into a round earth would not have been possible without much deformation of the earth's crust. That would leave far more scars than just a couple of mid-ocean ridges. It would have seriously distorted geography and destroyed many things both man-made and natural. If you peel an orange and then try to spread the peel flat on a surface you cause the peel to tear, but you also rely on the peel's natural flexibility in adapting to the new shape. Without that flexibility and ability to stretch or compress, the tears would have to spread fractally over the entire surface. Making a round earth flat is the reverse of that and similarly requires both tearing and stretching and compression. Maybe the crust of the earth has that flexibility (or would briefly have been given it by Manwe), but suppose the foundation of your house suddently grows or shrinks by some millimetres, what then of the rest of the house? It will probably lose some stability. The closer you get to the polar regions, the greater the deformation. If you get a chain of buildings collapsing across the world, that would surely leave some memory in history or archaeology.

Hmm. Is there any mention of catastrophe anywhere else in ME except for Numenor itself when the Straight Road was closed?

Originally Posted by shadowfax

I thus propose that that never happened. Maybe the Earth was always round but people didn't realize it. What maybe did happen was that Arda was previously on the earth's surface and was removed to some other location. This would have required other lands or seas to have been created to fill its place. Maybe there was once more land in what is now the Atlantic?

Interesting idea. What if it's the other way around - Valinor was removed from the round planet and ME remained?

If I may be forgiven for ignoring physics for the benefit of fantasy fiction, what if neither place was removed in the physical sense but was instead removed to a parallel existence, in a "Mists of Avalon" or Doctor Who type of way? Two worlds, physically superimposed but existing in different planes of reality.

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't see that in itself as a barrier. Our understanding of physics is based ultimately on our observations and extrapolations from therein. What we have never encountered is (obviously) not reflected in our models of the universe. Doesn't mean it can't happen, or doesn't exist. Our model of reality is only true until we encounter something in reality to contradict it; the lack of the encounter does not yet prove the infallibility of the model.

Granted.

I think that the changing of a flat earth to a round earth would not have been possible without some change in the laws of physics. So anything that happened before that change need not be explainable with our present understanding.

This raises the interesting perspective of what it is like to live in a place where the laws of physics suddenly change.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Interesting idea. What if it's the other way around - Valinor was removed from the round planet and ME remained?

Sorry, that is what I meant. My fingers were faster than my brain.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If I may be forgiven for ignoring physics for the benefit of fantasy fiction, what if neither place was removed in the physical sense but was instead removed to a parallel existence, in a "Mists of Avalon" or Doctor Who type of way? Two worlds, physically superimposed but existing in different planes of reality.

I guess that this is more or less what Tolkien had in mind (even if maybe he wouldn't have seen it that way). The question though is, what precisely does it mean when two worlds exist in parallel and there are some sort of portals between them. Is this parallellism physical or is it metaphorical?

Some scientists believe there may be wormholes in space-time meaning you can somehow get from one place to another through such a wormhole.

Some scientists believe that the laws of physics and mathematics were created, or came into existence, at the Big Bang. There may thus be other universes, created in their own big bangs, where totally different laws apply.

Now just imagine if there was a wormhole from our universe into some other such universe. If you went through such a wormhole you would transition to some other set of laws. In reality that would probably be the end of you as the atoms and molecules that hold you together in this universe might well do something totally different in that other universe (or the concept of atoms might not even exist). But suppose somehow that didn't happen ....

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Slight topic shift, but sure: if the entire body of the Legendarium comes from genuine historical documents, what non-documentary evidence would we expect to find?

1. The Changing of the World. A massive event like the sinking of Numenor and the world being made round would leave a huge scar on the planet. Something like, maybe... the mid-Atlantic Ridge? Is this where Iluvatar spliced the new, spherical world together?

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

2. Multiple humanoid species in the fossil record. In addition to H. sapiens, Tolkien would lead us to expect a gracile elvish form (though these might be tricky to find, immortality being what it is), a more robust Orcish form, and a diminutive Hobbit/Dwarf form. And, what do you know: there are multiple rugged hominids in the fossil record (notably Neanderthals), and at least one half-sized species (Flores Man, nicknamed Hobbits). There's even evidence of Neanderthals cross-breeding with humans - the half-Orcs of Saruman.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

(We wouldn't expect to find trolls, of course - they turn to stone in sunlight. Dragons could be found, but they mostly lived in Beleriand - pardon me, Broseliand - which is under the North Atlantic. On which note...)

3. Evidence of sunken lands in the North Atlantic (ie, Broseliand). Legends of this kind abound, for instance the Lowland Hundred of Welsh myth. Notably, however, both the shallows around the Isles of Scilly (off Cornwall) and the English Channel itself were once above the sea. It might even be possible to connect Scilly to one of the Broseliandic islands (Tol Fuin, for instance), except for the next point.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

4. The relocation of the British Isles in Saxon times. The Golden Book is quite clear on this: Britain, including such locations as Warwick and Great Haywood, was over in the Undying Lands until about the 500s AD. Which seems problematic, given how well attested the Roman ownership of the islands is.

Or... is it? Mapping the locations in the Golden Book, we find that they're all in the west of Great Britain. Clearly, the elves crashed an Eressea made of Ireland, Wales, and south-west England into a more slender island that was already there; the 'Roman' evidence from those parts is actually Elvish. As a bonus, this explains why the Romans never bothered to invade Ireland: it didn't actually exist at the time.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

5. Memory of a land of bliss across the Western Sea. How many do you need? The Irish, the Greeks, there's no end of these stories. The Slavic heaven was located 'far away beyond the sea, at the end of the Milky Way' - a perfect description of Valinor.

STATUS: CONFIRMED.

hS

The memory of the War of Wrath is preserved in the placename Cape Wrath, off the north-east coast of Scotland. IOW, it is adjacent to the region south of the Arctic, where Angband lay. The Ice Bay of Forochel preserves the location either of the Helcaraxe, or, more likely, of Utumno.

That shows that the Forodwaith preserved the memory of the War of Wrath for thousands of years after the fall of Angband.