The End of the Third Age

[Findegil]

ETA-SL-03.9: Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

One more addition for the very end of this chapter after the current last sentence:

ETA-SL-26 <Appendix A Here ends this tale, as it has come to us {from the South}; and with the passing of {Evenstar}the Fellowship no more is said in this book of the days of old.>

This was taken from the very end of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, but I removed it from that addition earlier, since we added bits about Eldarion and Legolas and Gimli after it, and so it wouldn't be strictly true. But I think it works really well as a closing line for the entire story of the Legendarium.

[Findegil]

ETA-SL-26: I am not happy with this addition. Even so it is ‘many years later’ The New Shadow is still in ‘the day of old’, at least from our and our potential readers perspective. And as we have old Borlas in that tale (at least at the beginning, that we have) the recorded event in the The New Shadow are not far in the future at the time when Legolas and Gimli left and Arwen died.
Anyhow the sentence is more true as it stands, since the death of Arwen is probably later then the journey of Legolas and Gimli, even so we record it in a changed sequence.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Would you recommend that it be put (in some modified form) at the end of The New Shadow? Or simply removed entirely?

[Findegil]

Modifying it in a way that it would be useable at the end of 'The New Shadow' is using JRR Tolkiens words forming a fan-fictional sentence. I think we have to leave it out.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Another good chapter! Looking through this thread, I can see the chapter went through lots of changes for the better. I only have a few minor comments:

1) Regarding the Blue Wizards, this chapter states:

What success they had {I do not know; but I fear}is not known; but it is feared that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and {I suspect}it is suspected they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.>

Here we say it is suspected the Blue Wizards failed, and what success they had is not known. But at the end of "Of the Five Wizards":

But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo; FW-SL-21 {(28)} Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion FW-SL-22{... } and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause {[? } dissension and disarray{]} among the dark East.{ ...} They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East {... }who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have {... }outnumbered the West.>

Here we say they had a great influence in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East, which seems like a success. I suppose these statements are fairly ambiguous, and they do not state anything definitively, due to phrases like "They must have had" and "it is suspected". I just wanted to bring it up. Do you guys think this is a contradiction, or are you OK keeping both sections?

2) ETA-SL-03.9 feels out of place:

.... Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.>
ETA-SL-03.9 <UT Sources of the Legend of Isildur’s Death {Long afterwards, as}As the Third Age of the Elvish World waned and the War of the Ring approached, it was revealed to the Council of Elrond that the Ring had been found, sunk near the edge of the Gladden Fields and close to the western bank; though no trace of Isildur's body was ever discovered. They were also then aware that Saruman had been secretly searching in the same region; but though he had not found the Ring (which had long before been carried off), they did not yet know what else he might have discovered.
But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm...

The sentence says "as the war of the ring approached" but at this point in the narrative, the war of the ring is already over. It also references the Council of Elrond well after the actual Council takes place. If you guys agree to moving it, I have a spot in the "Treason of Isengard" chapter where I think it is more appropriate; I can post it there.

3)

ETA-SL-15 <Appendix A Our King, we {call}called {him}King Elessar...

Is this any other instance we use the first-person, like this? Something which is clearly from the perspective of the hobbits. I know our work is theoretically based on something from an in-universe author, but I'm not sure we should explicitly keep first-person references like "I" or "we".

4) Typos:

He was sitting at the old well-worn, desk

This comma shouldn't be there.

There is now no snip that would bear

"ship"

5) I haven't read "The New Shadow" chapter yet, but I think Arcus' suggestion for the ending makes sense. Something like:

ETA-SL-26 <Appendix A Here ends this tale, as it has come to us {from the South}; and {with the passing of Evenstar} no more is said in this book of the days of old.>

I suppose it is "fan-fictional", but this entire project involves modifying and re-organizing Tolkien's words in a way he never intended. Maybe this is slightly self-indulgent, but I like how "as it has come to us" could have a double meaning: how it came to Tolkien from the elves/men/hobbits, and how it has come to us (i.e. the people editing "Translations from the Elvish").

[ArcusCalion]

1) Fin pointed out that the statements are not a contradiction. Saruman was also good for a time, and no doubt did much to prevent Sauron from gaining more power. However, he fell after some time. The same is equally possible of the Blue Wizards. This coupled with the vague language combines to make the two differing statements not contradictory.

2) Put your suggestion in that thread. I'm open to moving it.

3) This is the only other place where this occurs. We changed the similar statements in earlier chapters, so we should no doubt do so here.

4) Good catches!

5) I didn't think it was out of place in this chapter to be honest. I consider The Black Years and The Fading Years to be the last two parts continuing the narrative of the Quenta Silmarillion and the Atanatarion. Having this at the end of the work lends the whole thing a sense of finality and conclusion that I think is nice to have. The New Shadow is by its very incomplete nature a clearly unusual text, and must be dated later than the compilation of the previous texts. But it is definitely a debatable issue.
As for the argument that it is 'fanfiction-y,' then I must agree with gandalf here. By this definition, the whole project is fanfiction-y. But as it is a small thing, there is no reason to debate too long on it.