What is the Chance of the Valar Fighting for the Free People During the Third age?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

Regarding the dwarves and dale-as I understand it Rhunish forces were on the verge of victory at Erebor and then word reached them of the destruction of Sauron and then the defenders sallied and defeated the demoralized besiegers.

I'm not sure you're right about Erebor. Certainly the Mountain was under siege, but how well could they withstand that? I'm remembering that Moria held against Sauron's entire army during his conquest of Eregion; could a fully-fortified Erebor not stand up to a rabble out of the east? I agree that they couldn't break free, but they might well just stay locked away there.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Hmm. I don't think Sauron would have cared by that point about Morgoth's defeat by the Valar:

"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath." (Myths Transformed)

I think he thought the Valar had already lost before the Third Age began and that Morgoth had proved to be as weak as the rest. My interpretation is that Sauron eventually considered Morgoth and Manwë to both be fools who had equally failed to produce order at all costs, which was the only goal he considered worthwhile and the objective he deluded himself into thinking all powerful people aspired to exclusively.

This is an interesting thought. Then what is Sauron's goal by the end of the Third Age? Not destruction - the fact that he has empires under his sway in the south and east proves that. Just ruling everything? I think the answer hinges on this exchange:

Originally Posted by The Black Gate Opens

‘These are the terms,’ said the Messenger, and smiled as he eyed them one by one. ‘The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of Anduin shall be Sauron’s for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.’

Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.

But Gandalf said: ‘This is much to demand for the delivery of one servant: that your Master should receive in exchange what he must else fight many a war to gain! Or has the field of Gondor destroyed his hope in war, so that he falls to haggling? And if indeed we rated this prisoner so high, what surety have we that Sauron the Base Master of Treachery, will keep his part? Where is this prisoner? Let him be brought forth and yielded to us, and then we will consider these demands.’

It seemed then to Gandalf, intent, watching him as a man engaged in fencing with a deadly foe, that for the taking of a breath the Messenger was at a loss; yet swiftly he laughed again.

‘Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron!’ he cried. ‘Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!’

• What did Sauron hope to achieve with this deal? Was what he asked for actually his end goal, or was it just a step on the way to outright conquest down the line?
• Why did he make the offer in the first place? If he felt he could destroy the army, then them accepting this offer would actually be a step down from the total victory he was on the verge of achieving.

Actually... I'm forgetting here that Sauron at this point thinks Aragorn has the One Ring. He may well be afraid that a battle will lead to his orcs being taken from him or something. Hrm. Still, I think the first question stands.

hS

[Rhun charioteer]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm not sure you're right about Erebor. Certainly the Mountain was under siege, but how well could they withstand that? I'm remembering that Moria held against Sauron's entire army during his conquest of Eregion; could a fully-fortified Erebor not stand up to a rabble out of the east? I agree that they couldn't break free, but they might well just stay locked away there.



This is an interesting thought. Then what is Sauron's goal by the end of the Third Age? Not destruction - the fact that he has empires under his sway in the south and east proves that. Just ruling everything? I think the answer hinges on this exchange:

• What did Sauron hope to achieve with this deal? Was what he asked for actually his end goal, or was it just a step on the way to outright conquest down the line?
• Why did he make the offer in the first place? If he felt he could destroy the army, then them accepting this offer would actually be a step down from the total victory he was on the verge of achieving.

Actually... I'm forgetting here that Sauron at this point thinks Aragorn has the One Ring. He may well be afraid that a battle will lead to his orcs being taken from him or something. Hrm. Still, I think the first question stands.

hS

As I understand it, the easterlings were Sauron's best troops-the dwarf king had fallen, and so had the king of Dale,

And the easterlings weren't "rabble" but rather Sauron's best. Think my screen avatar(Peter Jackson's portrayal)-that is always how I imagined them. With the best armour, weapons, training and discipline amongst Sauron's armies.

Sure Erebor would be able to hold out for a long time-but eventually the mountain would have been breached and the easterlings would have poured west.

[Galadriel55]

I think the point isn't that organized resistance in key centres would be holding Sauron's might back. At the Council of Elrond they predict that if Sauron gets the Ring, sooner or later even the most strongly defended strongholds would fall, and eventually he would have all official control over Western Middle-earth. But unless he butchers every single person - and that is NOT his goal; whatever the end-game is, it's about control, not anihilation, - he cannot wipe out all forms of resistance. In the words of Beregond, "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green". Even if the fortresses fall and there is no major defense point left, people will find a way to carry on the message. Of course any overt rebellion must be put down immediately, but with generations of patience slow work may pay off.

Historically, it is possible to force people to assimilate into a new rule sufficiently to make them forget the messages of their past generations. However, I feel like Gondor has such a deep-rooted history that it would be hard to unroot completely, even with severe prohibitions, deportations, and other measures. Would Sauron really have to slaughter all the Numenorian descendants to keep order in his new world? Would he foresee the need for such a step before it's too late, before small groups are scattered far and wide, requiring significantly more effort to find and eliminate?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

As I understand it, the easterlings were Sauron's best troops-the dwarf king had fallen, and so had the king of Dale,

And the easterlings weren't "rabble" but rather Sauron's best. Think my screen avatar(Peter Jackson's portrayal)-that is always how I imagined them. With the best armour, weapons, training and discipline amongst Sauron's armies.

I honestly don't think the book really says anything about the armour, weapons and training of the Easterlings beyond the fact that some of them (unfamiliar to the Men of Gondor) wielded axes, that some of them travelled in wagons and that some of their chieftains rode in chariots.

I'm not sure what I would consider to be the best of Sauron's forces. The Corsairs of Umbar seem to be feared, and the Orcs of Sauron's "trained armies" give the impression of being formidable, the ones who were "so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command", as well as the ones who "were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship" but we don't hear much more. In fact those quotes from Morgoth's Ring about Orc military training might be one of the only examples I can think of in which Tolkien discusses training in Sauron's forces.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

he cannot wipe out all forms of resistance. In the words of Beregond, "Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green". Even if the fortresses fall and there is no major defense point left, people will find a way to carry on the message. Of course any overt rebellion must be put down immediately, but with generations of patience slow work may pay off.

My thoughts exactly. I think Sauron would have found his ultimate goal, "divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world", much more challenging than he expected.

[Rhun charioteer]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I honestly don't think the book really says anything about the armour, weapons and training of the Easterlings beyond the fact that some of them (unfamiliar to the Men of Gondor) wielded axes, that some of them travelled in wagons and that some of their chieftains rode in chariots.

I'm not sure what I would consider to be the best of Sauron's forces. The Corsairs of Umbar seem to be feared, and the Orcs of Sauron's "trained armies" give the impression of being formidable, the ones who were "so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command", as well as the ones who "were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship" but we don't hear much more. In fact those quotes from Morgoth's Ring about Orc military training might be one of the only examples I can think of in which Tolkien discusses training in Sauron's forces.


My thoughts exactly. I think Sauron would have found his ultimate goal, "divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world", much more challenging than he expected.

I seem to recall some easterlings made a stand at the River Anduin and fought till the last man while the orcs fled. This always spoke volumes to me about their combat quality.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The last time the Valar intervened in Middle-earth they obliterated a quarter of the continent, and its shattered survivors all had to be taken to mid-ocean refugee camps.

This would be akin to the nightmare WWIII scenario, of NATO having to resort to nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

I seem to recall some easterlings made a stand at the River Anduin and fought till the last man while the orcs fled. This always spoke volumes to me about their combat quality.

If you're referring to the Pelennor, notice that dawn broke and the Darkness was blown away, and the battle was fought in daylight. Note in particular that after the initial charge of Theoden, all the named enemies appear to be Men, not orcs or trolls- seemingly, all the Night Creatures were neutralized like Dracula when the sun came out.

[Rhun charioteer]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

If you're referring to the Pelennor, notice that dawn broke and the Darkness was blown away, and the battle was fought in daylight. Note in particular that after the initial charge of Theoden, all the named enemies appear to be Men, not orcs or trolls- seemingly, all the Night Creatures were neutralized like Dracula when the sun came out.

True, but all the same I always took the easterlings as Sauron's best troops. At least that was my interpretation and is now still.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

True, but all the same I always took the easterlings as Sauron's best troops. At least that was my interpretation and is now still.

Certainly it was always Easterlings, whether Wainriders or Balchoth or whomever, who posed the repeated threats to Gondor. Harad seems to have been much less of a challenge, aside from the Castamids at Umbar. Yes, the Corsairs were a hassle, but I would liken them to their namesake Barbary Pirates as compared to the Ottoman Sultanate (and before the Turks the Magyars, and before them the Avars, and before them the Huns, and before them the Vandals, and before them the Goths, and before them the Sarmatians, and......)