Pro Morgoth version of the Dagor Dagorath

[Huinesoron]

Ah, now I know what you're thinking of. I didn't recognise the line, but the only place I know of that could contain it as a chant would be one of the epic poems. Sure enough, in the Lay of Leithian, Sauron says these lines:

Originally Posted by LoL Canto VIII

"Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?
Who is the maker of mightiest work?
Who is the king of earthly kings,
the greatest giver of gold and rings?
Who is the master of the wide earth?
Who despoiled them of their mirth,
the vain Valar? Repeat your vows,
Orcs of Bauglir! Do not bend your brows.
Death to light, to law, to love;
cursed be moon and stars above;
may darkness everlasting old
that waits outside in surges cold
drown Manwë, Varda and the sun;
may all in hatred be begun
and all in evil ended be
in the moaning of the endless Sea!"

... to which Beren responds by mouthing off, because that's kind of his thing. And then Sauron offers to serenade them, because Middle-earth, in case you didn't know, is kind of odd.

Is this a prophecy? I'd say not. Rather, it's a prayer of sorts to Morgoth Bauglir, asking or hoping that he will bring the world into utter darkness. Which makes Orcish religion a seriously messed-up prospect; I'm not sure anyone's ever written about Orcs as a cult before, but look at that: they swear vows to the Lord of Mirk, Maker, Gift-Giver, King of Kings and Despoiler of Bliss, and what they vow is 'death to law, to light, to love'. Wow.

What this does give us is Morgoth's idea of how the Dagorath should go: he gets to destroy everything. That's the key difference between Morgoth and Sauron: Sauron may not want to create, precisely, but he does want to rule. For Morgoth, ruling is just a means to an end, and the end is smashing the world.

hS

[Zigûr]

I really need to read up. My knowledge is getting sloppy.

[Rhun charioteer]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ah, now I know what you're thinking of. I didn't recognise the line, but the only place I know of that could contain it as a chant would be one of the epic poems. Sure enough, in the Lay of Leithian, Sauron says these lines:



... to which Beren responds by mouthing off, because that's kind of his thing. And then Sauron offers to serenade them, because Middle-earth, in case you didn't know, is kind of odd.

Is this a prophecy? I'd say not. Rather, it's a prayer of sorts to Morgoth Bauglir, asking or hoping that he will bring the world into utter darkness. Which makes Orcish religion a seriously messed-up prospect; I'm not sure anyone's ever written about Orcs as a cult before, but look at that: they swear [b]vows[/i] to the Lord of Mirk, Maker, Gift-Giver, King of Kings and Despoiler of Bliss, and what they vow is 'death to law, to light, to love'. Wow.

What this does give us is Morgoth's idea of how the Dagorath should go: he gets to destroy everything. That's the key difference between Morgoth and Sauron: Sauron may not want to create, precisely, but he does want to rule. For Morgoth, ruling is just a means to an end, and the end is smashing the world.

hS

Ah that's what I was thinking of and that does have some disturbing implications for what orc religion(if such a thing exists) can be said to look like. Basically a combination of Satanism and Nihilism or Satanic Nihilism, or Nihilistic Satanism.

[Huinesoron]

Every so often I come back to this thread to grin once again at the story where Morgoth gets chased up a tree.

This time, I'm here because Arvegil145 has discovered that Tolkien actually amended the HoME V version of the End of Days quoted in post #2. The amendments are listed by Christopher in HoME XI, giving us a 1958 Second Prophecy which reads:

The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, and Beren Camlost, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Kementari; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world.

Note that the addition of Beren isn't precisely positioned; he could go in several places in the list of who was with Tulkas.

There are several references in The Nature of Middle-earth to the End of Days, though most just relate to Elvish aging. The only relevant one would seem to be this:

Originally Posted by NoME 3.XV

Is Aman "removed" or destroyed at the [Numenorean] Catastrophe?

[...] I think now that it is best that it should remain a physical landmass [...] It would just become an ordinary land [...] Aman and Eressea would be the memory of the Valar and Elvesof the former land. [...] But how then would the corporeal union of fëar and hroar be maintained in an Aman of memory only?

The answer, I think, is this.

The Catastrophe represents a definite intervention of Eru and therefore in a sense a change of the primal plan. It is a foretaste of the End of Arda. The situation is much later than "conversation of Finrod and Andreth" and could not then be foreseen by anyone, not even Manwë. In a sense Eru moved forward the End of Arda as far as it concerned the Elves...

The Elves are dying. They whether in Aman or outside will become fëar housed only in memory until the true End of Arda. They must await the issue of the War [?and] only then; and of their redemption foreglimpsed by Finrod: for their true returning (corporeal or in Eru's equivalent!) in Arda Remade.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Bouncing in again to add a potential Dagorath text: as identified here by Arvegil145, Finduilas may make reference to it in The Children of Hurin:

Originally Posted by Turin in Nargothrond

"The Adanedhel is mighty in the tale of the World, and his stature shall reach yet to Morgoth in some far day to come."

[...]

Maybe Finduilas spoke truly, seeing with the keen eyes of the Eldar.

It's not entirely clear if this is a prophecy, or if it is, whether it refers to the Dagorath or to the killing of Glaurung. But I'm adding it to the list anyway.

hS