LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 05 - The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Balrogs *don't* have wings--such has always been my take, so I shall put that here just in case the old coal still has enough fire to kindle some reaction.

Originally Posted by The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it.

The Balrog of LotR is, as described by Aragorn, 'both a shadow and a flame'. It's actually interesting to reflect on the difference between this and the Fall of Gondolin version, which is very obviously a corporeal soldier - here, I don't think it's necessarily true that the Balrog has a single physical 'body' at all. It is Shadow, only vaguely condensed into man-shape; when it passes over the fire, it becomes Flame and Shadow both.

With that in mind, the question of whether it has wings is trivial to answer: yes, it does, Tolkien tells us so directly.

...the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

The wings are of Shadow, just as the mane is of Flame. You wouldn't deny that the Balrog has a mane, even though it's obviously not hair (which would burn away): it is animate fire. Well, the wings are of animate shadow (they must be animate - shadows don't spread out naturally!).

As to whether Balrogs always have wings... well, that's a very different question.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Speaking of the Book of Mazarbul, I've always wondered what became of it. Given all the misfortunes and trials of the Fellowship, starting with the mad run sans supplies from Tol Brandir, it would be a wonder if it would still be brought to Dain intact. In fact Gimli carried with him two treasures - the book and Galadriel's lock. Of the two, the lock is much easier to carry in its small box; the book seemed to me quite a heavy volume. Did Gimli bring it with him on the chase and in future battles? Was it left with the rest of the supplies, hidden near Tol Brandir? Did it ever reach Dain?

You know, I never really remembered that Gimli took the Book with him. Thanks, both of you, for reminding me! Yet another puzzle to puzzle over...

hS

[Formendacil]

Ah! There's still some fire in the old dispute, after all! (Though perhaps it's fitting that my challenge comes from a newer member, rather than a survivor of the Balrog Wing Wars of the mid-aughts. ;-) )

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

With that in mind, the question of whether it has wings is trivial to answer: yes, it does, Tolkien tells us so directly.

See, you say this and then you immediately quote:

Originally Posted by The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

...the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

I, uh, may have added a little non-authorial emphasis...

However, the reason we in the non-wing camp are so vociferous in our opposition rests on that little, but mighty word: "like." If Tolkien meant that the balrog stretched its wings, he would have said so. If he meant that it stretched its wings of shadow, he would have said so. If he meant the shadow of its wings, he would have said so.

Instead, he saids "the shadow" (i.e. the balrog) reached out like two vast wings. "Like" functions to compare things. If Tolkien is saying that "the shadow-wings stretched out like wings," he has come up with the most atrociously unimaginative simile possible.

I do, however, think that Huinesoron actually agrees with me, even if he doesn't know it:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The wings are of Shadow, just as the mane is of Flame. You wouldn't deny that the Balrog has a mane, even though it's obviously not hair (which would burn away): it is animate fire. Well, the wings are of animate shadow (they must be animate - shadows don't spread out naturally!).

As to whether Balrogs always have wings... well, that's a very different question.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The Balrog of LotR is, as described by Aragorn, 'both a shadow and a flame'. It's actually interesting to reflect on the difference between this and the Fall of Gondolin version, which is very obviously a corporeal soldier - here, I don't think it's necessarily true that the Balrog has a single physical 'body' at all. It is Shadow, only vaguely condensed into man-shape; when it passes over the fire, it becomes Flame and Shadow both.

I think there's a lot more traction to be gained arguing that balrogs don't possess corporeal forms as we think of them--they may not have the true mutability of form that the Valar do, or Sauron pre-Akallabêth, but they aren't substantive creatures in the same way as Men or Elves. If one focuses on THIS element, I think it is possible to say that the whole wings/no-wings argument misses the point.

But, of course, that means that, not having bodies per se, balrogs are excluded a priori from having wings.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

But, of course, that means that, not having bodies per se, balrogs are excluded a priori from having wings.

But that just means you're arguing about what the definition of 'wings' is. My argument - and you're absolutely right that I agree that Durin's Bane doesn't appear to have physical wings - is that if it's all made of incorporeal shadow, then the appearance is the thing. They look like wings - therefore, they are wings, because it's all animate Shadow anyway.

The Balrog doesn't have a mane, because a mane is made of hair. What it has is fire pouring from somewhere around its head (lion or horse mane?) and streaming behind it. It looks like a mane - therefore it is a mane.

It looks like wings - therefore it is wings. Without being physical wings.



hS

PS: Of course, the battle on the Endless Stair suggests that there is something corporeal about the Balrog... but if it has a 'mane' of fire, then it has 'wings' of shadow too. ~hS

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But that just means you're arguing about what the definition of 'wings' is. My argument - and you're absolutely right that I agree that Durin's Bane doesn't appear to have physical wings - is that if it's all made of incorporeal shadow, then the appearance is the thing. They look like wings - therefore, they are wings, because it's all animate Shadow anyway.

Well, it is certainly possible that we're arguing nothing more than the definition of wings--that sort of philosophical turn would quite appeal to me. Nonetheless, though, I labour on to convey what I am trying to say:

The argument that "it looks like a thing, therefore it is a thing" simply doesn't work. If I say that you look like a doctor, I am also saying implicitly that you are NOT a doctor. Or, you might contend, you *are* a doctor and I am highlighting that you look like a doctor in order to convey that you appropriately appear the part. It does not at all appear to be the case to me that Tolkien is saying that the shadow's wings were like wings here because there was any doubt about it--it is far more probable to me that he is saying that the non-corporeal substance of the balrog loomed in the space and stretched LIKE wings.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It looks like wings - therefore it is wings. Without being physical wings.

To say that "it is wings" (emphasis on the "is") takes us to the philosophical again, but I must disagree. To look like something is NOT the same as to be that thing. But most importantly, I don't think it can be demonstrated that the wing-like aspect of the balrog's appearance is a perduring element of that appearance. Were it demonstrable the balrog's shadow always looms "like wings," then I might be persuaded that the balrog has wings--but that is not yet demonstrated.

[Huinesoron]

I concur that the Durin's Bane passage gives no indication that the Balrog always has wings, but I stand by my interpretation tgat when the Shadow that makes up its substance takes the form of wings, they are indeed wings.

Because yes, Tolkien initially says 'spread out like wings', to describe the change of shape ('spread out as wings' would be very clumsy, don't you think?). But only a few paragraphs later, when the fact that they are of Shadow has been established, he drops the comparative: 'its wings were spread from wall to wall'.

Not 'its like-wings'. Not 'it seemed it had wings that spread'. Just 'its wings'. Like the 'mane' of fire, the 'wings' of shadoe have become a feature of the Balrog - of this Balrog, at this moment.

hS

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Because yes, Tolkien initially says 'spread out like wings', to describe the change of shape ('spread out as wings' would be very clumsy, don't you think?). But only a few paragraphs later, when the fact that they are of Shadow has been established, he drops the comparative: 'its wings were spread from wall to wall'.

Not 'its like-wings'. Not 'it seemed it had wings that spread'. Just 'its wings'. Like the 'mane' of fire, the 'wings' of shadoe have become a feature of the Balrog - of this Balrog, at this moment.

Or Tolkien--trusting his reader (foolishly, it would seem)--converts the simile to a metaphor.

The endless nature of the Great Balrog Debate is kind of fascinating if I ever step back from it--even elf-ears as a debate doesn't feel like quite the same thing. It something of a sui generis issue: a single-passage interpretative battle without an exact analogue anywhere else in the fandom.

Following its well-worn steps would undoubtedly lead one of us eventually to the non-LotR texts about balrogs (which fail in the slightest to make me think that Tolkien visualised them as having wings)--but as that takes us beyond the scope of a chapter-by-chapter discussion, I shall refrain from going there.