The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

[Findegil]

DGF-SL-01: Yes that would works, because it refers to the entire Third Age. I would probably have removed the reference to the white tree completely. But it is okay as it is, so it does not do the trick fully for me (see last point in this post).

LA-SL-16, LA-SL-17 & DGF-SL-03.5: Agreed.

LA-SL-13 & DGF-SL-13: Yes, that works for me.

DGF-SL-16: Okay.

I am still not completely satisfied with the structure in this chapter. This might sound a bit radical, but what about this:

FY-HL-01<Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
The Fading Years
>TFY-01<Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age {Those}These were the Fading Years, ... arose in Mirkwood again.>FY-HL-02b<Cirion and Eorl
The Tradition of Isildur
> DGF-SL-01 <Of the Rings of Power Thus began the Third Age of the World, … for after Elendil’s day the two kindreds became estranged. DGF-SL-02 <GC Amroth {but he}Amdír was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad and most of his company with him. Amroth, his son, became king [of Lórien].> DGF-SL-03 <GC Appendix B Thranduil {his}Oropher’s son survived, but when the war ended and Sauron was slain (as it seemed) he led back home barely a third of the army that had marched to war.>
The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur DGF-SL-03.5{would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be forever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: ‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?' And the Ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed. Taking}took it {therefore}and he returned at first to Minas Anor, and there planted the White Tree in memory of his brother Anárion.> DGF-SL-04 <The Disaster of the Gladden Fields {After the fall of Sauron, Isildur, the son and heir of Elendil, returned to Gondor.} There he assumed the Elendilmir as King of Arnor, and proclaimed his sovereign lordship over all the Dúnedain in the North and in the South; for he was a man of great pride and vigor. He remained for a year in Gondor, restoring its order and defining its boundsDFG-SL-04.5<moved from below and instructing Meneldil his nephew>DGF-SL-07b<moved from below from The Disaster of the Gladden Fields [Footnote to the text: Meneldil was the {nephew of Isildur, }son of Isildur's younger brother Anárion, slain in the siege of Barad-dûr. Isildur had established Meneldil as King of Gondor.]>; DGF-SL-05{[Footnote: As is related in the Tale of Cirion and Eorl, drawing on older histories, now mostly lost, for its account of the events that led to the Oath of Eorl and the alliance of Gondor with the Rohirrim.]} but the greater part of the army of Arnor returned to Eriador by the Númenórean road from the Fords of Isen to Fornost.>
GF-SL-06<ToI {It is said that when Isildur returned from the War of the Last Alliance he remained for a time in Gondor, ordering the realm and instructing Meneldil his nephew, before he himself departed to take up the kingship of Arnor.} With Meneldil and a company of trusted friends … unless he be an heir of Elendil.’
They made a stone stair … and other matters that he should know.>FY-HL-03b <Disaster of the Gladden Fields
Of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields
> DGF-SL-08<Disaster of the Gladden Fields When he at last felt free to return to his own realm {he}Isildur was in haste, and he wished to go first to Imladris; for he had left his wife and youngest son there, and he had moreover an urgent need for the counsel of Elrond. …

I lifted The Tradition of Isildur to one level higher and used it for the entire story of Isildurs time in Gondor.
Beside that I added DGF-SL-04.5 and moved DGF-SL-07b to this now first occurrence of Meneldil. Since here he is already named a nephew of Isildur, I changed the note accordingly.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

So are you suggesting that the chapter be called The Tradition of Isildur with The Disaster of the Gladden Fields switching places to become the sub-heading? Or are you saying that they should be separate chapters? If you are saying that they should become separate chapters, then I do not agree. The resulting chapter: The Tradition of Isildur would be far too short, rivaling even our chapter Of the Five Wizards. I think that this makes it somewhat unlikely, and I see no real need to present it in this oddly truncated state. May I ask why you feel the need to rearrange so strongly?

[Findegil]

I suggested exactlly the spliting into 2 seperate entitties.

But I can understand your concerns. But in that case I would still say that 'The Tradition of Isildur' is the better title for a combined chapter.

The impulse to combine the chapters was fact that at the beginning of 'The Tradition of Isildur' has a very similar passage to that from 'The Rings of Power' that we used directly before. The real important change that I wanted, is DGF-SL-04.5.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Very well, I will agree to switch the chapter name and the sub-heading, and keep your changes.

[gandalf85]

After reading this chapter, I think the decision to change the father and son in the Lost Road section to Isildur and Elendur was the right decision. Getting to know them and their relationship in that chapter strengthens their interactions in this chapter and makes their deaths more tragic. Some comments:

1)

On the march each man carried with him two days' provisions (other than the ‘need-wallet’ mentioned in the text)

Where is a 'need-wallet' mentioned? I couldn't find it in this chapter, or "Of Sauron Defeated" or "Of The Fall of Numenor". Could we reference the actual chapter it is mentioned in? Instead of "mentioned in the text," we would say "mentioned in [chapter name]".

2) There seem to be a few typos in the text Arcus sent me, or the original text:

but the soldiers of the Dúnedain, tail men of great strength and endurance

This is what it says in the pdf I have of Unfinished Tales. I am not currently at my home and can't check in my physical copy, but I think this should be "tall".

All three had fought in the War of the Alliance, but Aratan an Ciryon had not been

This should be "and".

3) This is more a question than a comment. At the end of note 20 it says "Nonetheless it proved in the event that the War of the Ring was lost at the Disaster of the Gladden Fields." I don't understand this. The War of the Ring was ultimately a victory. How was the War lost at the Disaster of the Gladden Fields?

[ArcusCalion]

1) This need wallet is mentioned in the following text 'The Sources of the legend of Isildur's death' which I did not include in this chapter because it contains many references to Aragorn and the Fourth Age. However, looking at it again, I think we can include it, or at least part of it. Here is my proposed inclusion:

.... Arnor and Gondor, and in that age of the World the last.>

FY-HL-03.5 The Sources of the Legend of Isildur’s Death

DGF-SL-17 <UT There were eye-witnesses of the event. Ohtar and his companion escaped, bearing with them the shards of Narsil. The tale mentions a young man who survived the slaughter: he was Elendur's esquire, named Estelmo, and was one of the last to fall, but was stunned by a club, and not slain, and was found alive under Elendur's body. He heard the words of Isildur and Elendur at their parting. There were rescuers who came on the scene too late, but in time to disturb the Orcs and prevent their mutilation of the bodies: for there were certain Woodmen who got news to Thranduil by runners, and also themselves gathered a force to ambush the Orcs – of which they got wind, and scattered, for though victorious their losses had been great, and almost all of the great Orcs had fallen: they attempted no such attack again for long years after.
The story of the last hours of Isildur and his death was due to surmise: but well-founded. The legend in its full form was not composed until the reign of Elessar in the Fourth Age, when other evidence was discovered. Up to then it had been known, firstly, that Isildur had the Ring, and had fled towards tin River; secondly, that his mail, helm, shield and great sword (but nothing else) had been found on the bank not far above the Gladden Fields; thirdly, that the Orcs had left watchers on the west bank armed with bows to intercept any who might escape the battle and flee to the River (for traces of their camps were found, one close to the borders of the Gladden Fields); and fourthly, that Isildur and the Ring, separately or together, must have been lost in the River, for if Isildur had reached the west shore wearing the Ring he should have eluded the watch, and so hardy a man of great endurance could not have failed to come then to Lórien or Moria before he foundered. Though it was a long journey, each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days – not indeed the miruvor or the lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten. No belt or wallet was among the gear discarded by Isildur.>

2) Thank you, nice catch

3) I think this is most likely a slip on Tolkien's part, he clearly means the War of the Last Alliance.

[gandalf85]

1) I think this section makes sense at the end of the chapter. I see that you added the rest of "The Sources of the legend of Isildur's death" to another chapter, I was actually going to recommend doing just that and removing the chapter from Volume 3.