* An unofficial New Silmarillion Outline * - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ArcusCalion · 02-16-2018, 10:55 AM

Going with the assumption that the Appendices are to be used (as I think they must) this is the outline I have prepared for Volume II including my draft of the Third Age material.

Quote:

VOLUME II: THE HISTORY OF THE NORTHWEST OF MIDDLE-EARTH
The Black Years
-The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves
-The Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men
-A Description of the Island of Númenor
-Indis i·Ciryamo
-Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
---The Elessar
-The Port of Lond Daer
-Glorfindel
-Of the Five Wizards
-Of the Rings of Power
-Aman and Mortal Men
-Tal-Elmar
-The Fall of Númenor
---The Lost Road
-Sauron Defeated
The Fading Years
-The Disaster of the Gladden Fields
---The Tradition of Isildur
-The Return of the Shadow
-Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion
---The Northmen and the Wainriders
-The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-The Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel
---The Stewards
-The Ride of Eorl
---Cirion and Eorl
-The House of Eorl
-Dúrin's Folk
-Concerning Gandalf, Saruman, and the Shire
-The War of the Ring
-Appendix A: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen
-Appendix B: The Quest for Erebor
-Appendix C: The Battles of the Fords of Isen
---The Marshals of the Mark
-Appendix D: The Hunt for the Ring
The New Shadow

Findegil · 02-17-2018, 03:12 PM

That looks impresiv. I have only two remark:
To lift the last chapters 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'; 'The Quest for Erebor'; 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen' and 'The Hunt for the Ring' to full talls beside 'Ainulindalë'; 'Valaquenta'; 'Quenta Silmarillion'; 'Athrabeht Finrod ah Andreth'; 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'; 'Narn e•mbar Hador'; 'The Black Years' and 'The Fading Years' seems a bit unproportional to me. It is okay for 'The New Shadow' because that is a stand alone any how. But the rest I would rather order them under 'The Fading Years'.
The second remark is just an idea and you as having worked with the texts might simply reject it as rediculous: Wouldn't it be good to shift 'The Marshals of the Mark' too an earlier place and incooperate it in 'The House of Eorl'

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 02-17-2018, 04:18 PM

I thought about doing this, but The Marshals of the Mark refers heavily to specific events in the course of the War of the Ring that are not covered by the cursory account. I have begun to consider adding in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen to the main narrative, in which case, The Hunt for the Ring, Marshals of the Mark, and possibly the entire Battle of the Fords might be able to be inserted. I have not attempted this, however, and at the moment I am of the opinion that it would not work. As to the point of the disproportionate level at which these sundry tales are placed in my current outline, Volume 3 also has a similar problem. I do see the difference there, however, since it is not a continuous narrative. If The Hunt for the Ring, The Quest for Erebor, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, and The Battle of the Fords of Isen cannot be fitted into the narrative, maybe they could be listed as Appendix A, B, and C? THis way they would have the same level as the chapters, but would be denoted as secondary elements outside of the single narrative.

Edit: I have now looked into it, and I do not believe that The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen should be inserted into the main narrative. It would need to be broken up, and would thus lose a great deal of coherence. Besides that, the other tales do not readily fit into the summary account of the War of the Ring given in the work, and still would need to stand alone. The Marshals of the Mark could be inserted under its subheading immediately at the end of the existing draft for The War of the Ring but this would feel out of place and would distract from the narrative needlessly, since it fits well in subject matter to The Battle of the Fords of Isen, which discusses much of Rohan's military structure and strategy.

gondowe · 02-18-2018, 02:55 AM

This is only a constructive criticism, of course. In my humble opinion tales like The Lost Road, Tar Elmar, or The New Shadow (this one also possibly never would be in the "original" Tfte), are very individual and very very unfinished to be in any place of these projects.
As for the structure, without any pretentious for my part, do you consider in some time my structure?. For me, that already read it is, even cronologically, very accurate, and very "Tolkienist".

Every chapter you quote is merged into the narrative.
Greetings

ArcusCalion · 02-18-2018, 10:36 AM

gondowe, to your point about Tal-Elmar and The New Shadow, the way in which they are given in the work is not intrusive into the story, and their unfinished quality may be explained by a simple preface that the conclusion of these stories was lost. As lindil has said, and as Findegil believes, the goal of this project is maximum inclusion: if the Professor wrote it, we will try to include it. I see no real reason to dismiss these two works simply because they are unfinished. In some ways, I think their unfinished nature is actually part of the allure of Middle-earth, where there are always more stories hiding beneath the pages, lost or unfinished. I see no compelling reason to exclude these works.

I have indeed reviewed your structure many times, and while it is incredible and much to be lauded, the goals of your project and the goals of this one are not the same. You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project. Therefore, while your structure is admirable, it is not necessarily in tune with what we are pursuing. In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history. I have followed the model of the project in mine: creating a single, linear narrative in order to have one unbroken historical tale, from the creation to the reign of Eldarion son of Aragon. I was unable to insert some of the stories (the ones I have named above) into the direct narrative, but perhaps Findegil or Aiwendil will have a solution.

gondowe · 02-18-2018, 03:52 PM

"You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project."

Arcuscalion, apart for the subheadings I didn't invent anything, anything is unsourced; only prepositional, etc nexus between paragraphs, sentences, etc.
But many subheadings in UT and HoME series are (in my opinion) inventions of CT only to give order to the texts. For that reason the subheadings never were a problem for me while the text were pure Tolkien.

"In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history."

I also think that I am following the CT method, but the structure I think is more JRRT method (always with humility of course) as you said about my following Appendix A of TLotR.

Anyway I always understood that this project is different from mine and in this way I always share my opinions about the composition of the texts, forgetting the structure because as I always said in this forum, at last the historic information is the same.
I only wanted to say that you could take ideas from my structure, only that.
Greetings

ArcusCalion · 02-19-2018, 12:54 AM

Ah my apologies, I was just going off of the headings. It is hard for me to divine your structure accurately, I think, since I do not have the text of your version, which I would not be able to read (since I am not fluent in Spanish). I do indeed consider your outline before making my own, but I think I'll stick with mine for now. Perhaps Fin could weigh in?

02-17-2018, 04:18 PM	#3
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	I thought about doing this, but The Marshals of the Mark refers heavily to specific events in the course of the War of the Ring that are not covered by the cursory account. I have begun to consider adding in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen to the main narrative, in which case, The Hunt for the Ring, Marshals of the Mark, and possibly the entire Battle of the Fords might be able to be inserted. I have not attempted this, however, and at the moment I am of the opinion that it would not work. As to the point of the disproportionate level at which these sundry tales are placed in my current outline, Volume 3 also has a similar problem. I do see the difference there, however, since it is not a continuous narrative. If The Hunt for the Ring, The Quest for Erebor, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, and The Battle of the Fords of Isen cannot be fitted into the narrative, maybe they could be listed as Appendix A, B, and C? THis way they would have the same level as the chapters, but would be denoted as secondary elements outside of the single narrative. Edit: I have now looked into it, and I do not believe that The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen should be inserted into the main narrative. It would need to be broken up, and would thus lose a great deal of coherence. Besides that, the other tales do not readily fit into the summary account of the War of the Ring given in the work, and still would need to stand alone. The Marshals of the Mark could be inserted under its subheading immediately at the end of the existing draft for The War of the Ring but this would feel out of place and would distract from the narrative needlessly, since it fits well in subject matter to The Battle of the Fords of Isen, which discusses much of Rohan's military structure and strategy. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 02-17-2018 at 04:36 PM.

02-18-2018, 02:55 AM	#4
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	This is only a constructive criticism, of course. In my humble opinion tales like The Lost Road, Tar Elmar, or The New Shadow (this one also possibly never would be in the "original" Tfte), are very individual and very very unfinished to be in any place of these projects. As for the structure, without any pretentious for my part, do you consider in some time my structure?. For me, that already read it is, even cronologically, very accurate, and very "Tolkienist". Every chapter you quote is merged into the narrative. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 02-18-2018 at 03:02 AM.

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02-17-2018, 03:12 PM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	That looks impresiv. I have only two remark: To lift the last chapters 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'; 'The Quest for Erebor'; 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen' and 'The Hunt for the Ring' to full talls beside 'Ainulindalë'; 'Valaquenta'; 'Quenta Silmarillion'; 'Athrabeht Finrod ah Andreth'; 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'; 'Narn e•mbar Hador'; 'The Black Years' and 'The Fading Years' seems a bit unproportional to me. It is okay for 'The New Shadow' because that is a stand alone any how. But the rest I would rather order them under 'The Fading Years'. The second remark is just an idea and you as having worked with the texts might simply reject it as rediculous: Wouldn't it be good to shift 'The Marshals of the Mark' too an earlier place and incooperate it in 'The House of Eorl' Respectfully Findegil

02-18-2018, 10:36 AM	#5
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	gondowe, to your point about Tal-Elmar and The New Shadow, the way in which they are given in the work is not intrusive into the story, and their unfinished quality may be explained by a simple preface that the conclusion of these stories was lost. As lindil has said, and as Findegil believes, the goal of this project is maximum inclusion: if the Professor wrote it, we will try to include it. I see no real reason to dismiss these two works simply because they are unfinished. In some ways, I think their unfinished nature is actually part of the allure of Middle-earth, where there are always more stories hiding beneath the pages, lost or unfinished. I see no compelling reason to exclude these works. I have indeed reviewed your structure many times, and while it is incredible and much to be lauded, the goals of your project and the goals of this one are not the same. You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project. Therefore, while your structure is admirable, it is not necessarily in tune with what we are pursuing. In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history. I have followed the model of the project in mine: creating a single, linear narrative in order to have one unbroken historical tale, from the creation to the reign of Eldarion son of Aragon. I was unable to insert some of the stories (the ones I have named above) into the direct narrative, but perhaps Findegil or Aiwendil will have a solution.

02-18-2018, 03:52 PM	#6
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	"You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project." Arcuscalion, apart for the subheadings I didn't invent anything, anything is unsourced; only prepositional, etc nexus between paragraphs, sentences, etc. But many subheadings in UT and HoME series are (in my opinion) inventions of CT only to give order to the texts. For that reason the subheadings never were a problem for me while the text were pure Tolkien. "In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history." I also think that I am following the CT method, but the structure I think is more JRRT method (always with humility of course) as you said about my following Appendix A of TLotR. Anyway I always understood that this project is different from mine and in this way I always share my opinions about the composition of the texts, forgetting the structure because as I always said in this forum, at last the historic information is the same. I only wanted to say that you could take ideas from my structure, only that. Greetings

02-19-2018, 12:54 AM	#7
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Ah my apologies, I was just going off of the headings. It is hard for me to divine your structure accurately, I think, since I do not have the text of your version, which I would not be able to read (since I am not fluent in Spanish). I do indeed consider your outline before making my own, but I think I'll stick with mine for now. Perhaps Fin could weigh in?