Questions about the host of Valinor

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Or this

Your second find is essentially a match for my composite; the difference is that they've invented an extended coastline to the south. Lining up the Silm and LotR maps gives the basic conclusion that the entire length of the Blue Mountains appears on both maps; you can figure out the rest from there.

(The first image you found, though, doesn't even put the mountains on top of themselves...!)

Originally Posted by Galin

I think it's possible (wow, going out on a limb there) that at least as late as the 1937 Silmarillion, the sinking of Beleriand left the Isle of England. The text refers to the "great isles" which were fashioned of ancient Beleriand, and that some of the Eldalie lingered "especially in the Western Isles and in the Land of Leithian."

Doggerland! I think this is a reasonable supposition, and serves as a neat midway point between Eressea-England of BoLT, and Shire-England of LotR. I don't think it's an idea I've seen before, and of course it vanishes without a trace by the time of LotR being written.

Anyway, none of that necessarily means much. To my mind JRRT abandoned that England (and Ireland?) were left from Old Beleriand (I think he also abandoned the idea of "Himling" and Tol Fuin too)...

Treebeard, for example, doesn't appear to think Tol Fuin exists (Dorthonion being under the waves), though granted he might not know, or such a footnote just doesn't flow well within a nice chant. Still, for whatever reason, no Himling or Tol Fuin ever made it on to any map published while JRRT himself was alive...

... including the revised edition map, and the map by Pauline Baynes, which JRRT himself helped with (or whatever, with respect to proper grammar).

I think it's a big stretch to say Tol Fuin and Himling were abandoned. Checking 'The Treason of Isengard', the so-called First Map reached virtually the final form from LotR with them still intact. The page they were on was added to the original map, which was basically the Hobbit map extended to the Shire. Christopher writes that he used the First Map as basis for his coloured chalk version, so we can assume they were on that, too.

The Second Map, in 'The War of the Ring', doesn't get that far north, so it seems the northern First Map was adapted directly for the final version. I think the only reason the islands don't appear is that they would have needed a whole bunch of sea to their south.

As it happens, I saw the Tolkien-annotated original of the Baynes map while it was on display in Oxford, and put together a photo-composite. Here it is. There is actually something going on off the Lindon coast - a big black blob right where Himling should be, and a couple of illegible notes. Feel free to try your hand at interpreting them.

hS

[Galin]

The Second Map, in 'The War of the Ring', doesn't get that far north, so it seems the northern First Map was adapted directly for the final version. I think the only reason the islands don't appear is that they would have needed a whole bunch of sea to their south.

But surely not to portray "Himling" at least, which, if I recall correctly, some newer editions of The Lord of the Rings have done.

Also, the first edition Lord of the Rings map is a large fold-out, with plenty of room for both islands in my opinion (Himling easily). Or even if not, there's plenty of open space, or blank "water", below where further details too far out to sea/see could be placed in a separate "box" (I don't know if those things have a name).

I'm not saying Tolkien had necessarily rejected these Islands in 1954, 1955, but for whatever reason, they do not appear on the map published at this time, and thus could easily be rejected later, without readers scratching their heads and toes.

As it happens, I saw the Tolkien-annotated original of the Baynes map while it was on display in Oxford, and put together a photo-composite. Here it is. There is actually something going on off the Lindon coast - a big black blob right where Himling should be, and a couple of illegible notes. Feel free to try your hand at interpreting them.

Yes but it's a blob

It doesn't look like Tol Fuin or Himling with respect to shape. And (looking at Tolkien's own map in The Treason of Isengard anyway) in my opinion it's too far off the coast for Himling; and if it's meant to be Tol Fuin, then there's no Himling blob.

Plus, why a filled-in black shape without any added "shore line" lines to match the rest of the existing map, as with Tolfalas below? That would have made things clear at least. And this would seemingly mean that the artist chose to put a drawing in this corner of her map, instead of an Island Tolkien had added.

In addition to Treebeard "drowning" Tol Fuin (well, not really) Tolkien's Unfinished Index to The Lord of the Rings makes no mention of the Isle of Himling: "Beleriand -- The 'lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)" Hammond And Scull's Reader's Companion.

But what about Tol Morwen, if all means all (and if we press this "all" in the first place, which might be pressing too much, admittedly)?

I can't recall (if I ever did know) the dates involved with respect to the index versus the conception of Tol Morwen, but anyway if we allow Tolkien one exception to "all" (instead of three), I suggest that by removing explicit mentions of Tol Fuin and 'Himling' (or simply not mentiong them again, as they had not been published anyway), arguably lends Tol Morwen a more unique place in the legendarium.

'For this there can be no simple explanation, but it seems to me that an important element was the centrality that my father accorded to the story of Húrin and Morwen and their children (...) This became for him, I believe, the dominant and absorbing story of the end of the Elder Days, in which complexity of motive and character, trapped in the mysterious workings of Morgoth's curse, sets it altogether apart.' Christopher Tolkien, Foreword, The War of the Jewels

And the description:

"... nor ever thrown down, not though the Sea should drown all the land. As indeed after befell, and still the Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar. But Húrin does not lie there, for his doom drove him on, ..." JRRT, The Wanderings of Húrin

That is, I feel if Tol Morwen were truly more 'alone' (more than merely being lonely or 'alone' in the place where it stood), the surviving Isle becoming more singular surrounds it with more mythic importance.

Just my opinion anyway.

[Galin]

Also, this map has been transcribed. Apparently the upper left note is from Pauline Baynes.

http://www.tolkiensociety.org/2015/1...h-transcribed/

Tolkien's annotations are said to be in green ink and pencil. The unnamed blob looks blue to me, at least at some sites.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Maiar are implied to be rather numerous, and of hugely varying degrees of innate power- from near-Valarin, like Sauron and Osse, on down to the assistant undergardeners in Lorien. However, those assistant undergardeners would almost certainly be mighty warriors compared to even the greatest of the Vanyar or repentant Noldor.

[Rhun charioteer]

I always figured it wasn't just Eonwe but there were multiple Maiar commanders, generals, and leaders fighting in the war of wrath.

[Zigûr]

I can imagine that Ëonwë might at least have had a retinue or staff of Maiar with him to assist him in commanding the very large force the Valar sent to Beleriand.

There really isn't a great deal of evidence either way, however. It doesn't count for much, but when Maedhros and Maglor snuck into Ëonwë's camp after the destruction of Angband, they were able to slay the guards who were protecting the two Silmarils. These people, who had a very important role in the camp, thus seem to have been Elves. Perhaps Maiar were too important for guard duty (or perhaps this was when Ëonwë was busy with Sauron — that would be an interesting coincidence).

I hope they weren't the same ones guarding Morgoth!

(On a slightly off-topic note, it's frustrating to observe that there's very little fan art of Sauron supplicating himself before Ëonwë, and what does exist isn't very good — typical "everyone is waifish" stylings)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Perhaps Maiar were too important for guard duty (or perhaps this was when Ëonwë was busy with Sauron — that would be an interesting coincidence).

Well, maybe it was thought that since Morgoth had been captured, and his forces routed, the threat to the Silmarils was minimal.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I hope they weren't the same ones guarding Morgoth!

That was the obvious place for top-level guards. I doubt they would have let any but Maia anywhere near Morgoth, and even then none alone with him.