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12-03-2017, 05:25 PM | #1 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol
I was recently rereading The Return of the King and came to the part of the Tower of Cirith Ungol where it reads:
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The fact that the orcs did not glean more useful information out of Frodo is rather incredible. Clearly, there is no reason to suppose that Shagrat and Gorbag knew the right questions to ask to really get to the bottom of things and Frodo would certainly not want to volunteer any information in that direction. But that begs the question of what he could have told them to satisfy them. They did eventually leave him alone, which is stated in the passage: Quote:
I suppose he may have just refused to speak to them at all, and I would think it would take a long time of this before Shagrat and Gorbag grew bored and frustrated. However, the timeline is interesting because Frodo's statement implies that some time passed between the end of his questioning and the beginning of the fight. The two captains did not begin the fight right there in front of Frodo. They did not torture Frodo because of Sauron's orders and Frodo even said that he was not seriously hurt. That might have yielded some useful results...or it might not have. Again, if nothing else Shagrat and Gorbag would not have had the information needed to ask the right questions. I have a hard time imagining that Frodo didn't say anything to them but I also cannot imagine anything he could have said that would not have raised more questions that I don't think Frodo would have been able to satisfactorily explain away to get them to leave him alone.
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12-03-2017, 07:37 PM | #2 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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Also, judging from the conversation of Shagrat and Gorbag as overheard by Sam, the orcs were considering that Frodo was the lesser of two spies in the area, the one still loose maybe being an elf-warrior. That being the case, Frodo himself would probably have been the main focus of the orcs' worries.
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12-03-2017, 07:51 PM | #3 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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But it's also possible they left him alone deliberately, to let his imagination do the work. After all poor Frodo didn't know they weren't allowed to torture him.
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12-03-2017, 08:15 PM | #4 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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As far as what Frodo told them - it certainly wasn't much, going by what we have from the Mouth of Sauron. And if Pippin's fiasco with the Palantir can be used to judge all hobbits, he would have probably given as little as possible, some one-word answers or nods or something. What makes me wonder, though, is that the Mouth of Sauron never mentioned the second spy. The orcs knew of Sam's presence, and the question "did you come alone" does not seem very much out of repertoire. With even the shred of this knowledge, the Mouth could have bluffed and told them the other spy was also captured or killed. Is it all thanks to the orcs forgetting everything in the fight and then covering up their misses by failing to report the high suspicion of the second, more powerful spy? Is orc delinquency the only reason the whole plot failed through - Sam was not searched for properly and the Mouth inadvertently gave the spokespeople an indication that not all might be lost yet?
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12-03-2017, 08:55 PM | #5 | ||
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Frodo may have been surprised that they did not physically harm him.
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12-04-2017, 03:20 AM | #6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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It's also worth considering Frodo's state of mind (and body) at this point. To take a few select quotes:
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He was also filled with Orc-draught, which could have interacted in any number of ways with spider-venom. What does happen if you mix a powerful sedative with a powerful stimulant, both of them steeped in the Shadow? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say 'nothing good'. And finally, he was (once he realised what was happening) in the depths of absolute despair - so far as he knew, the Orcs had the Ring. Look at that description of his failure; it has the lyrical construction of utter misery. So: delusional, drugged both up and down, and sunk into despair. He thinks the Orcs know exactly what's going on - their gloating over capturing him reads, to Frodo, as gloating over reclaiming the Ring. Their questions, then - who are you? Why are you here? Is there anyone else with you? - must feel like purest mockery. They can't be expecting him to answer (Frodo thinks), because they already know everything that matters. |
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12-04-2017, 11:17 AM | #7 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Perhaps Frodo struck the orcs as so delusional and strange that there was little to learn from him and that is why they eventually left him alone.
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12-04-2017, 07:38 PM | #8 |
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Fortunately for the good guys, there was only one survivor of the mutual slaughter at Cirith Ungol- Shagrat, who took the confiscated items to Barad-dur and was promptly executed for his trouble (this last in an unpublished MS.) It is entirely possible, even likely, that Sauron took his tale of a "great Elf warrior" as a lame excuse for what was plainly Orcs being Orcs (as the Nazgul probably would already have told him), a fiasco for which the commanding officer would be held accountable, in the usual Evil Overlord manner of enforcing discipline.
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12-04-2017, 09:58 PM | #9 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Shagrat did provide some evidence of Frodo's and Sam's presence. Just in a very garbled state and paired with a grade A military debacle.
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12-05-2017, 01:28 AM | #10 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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It's like Werewolf. Once the pack has winning numbers, it's time to stop bluffing and start gloating, no? ~Brought to you by the Foundation for Gratuitous Werewolf Comparisons.
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12-05-2017, 09:32 AM | #11 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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12-05-2017, 10:39 AM | #12 | |||
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But then (appropriately enough) he opens his mouth, and reveals what he doesn't know - 'but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly', he says, instantly telling Gandalf that he doesn't know about the Ring. But he's still saying 'spies', plural, and here Gandalf (who still has no reason to doubt that both Frodo and Sam are prisoners) is simply lucky: he doesn't say anything to confirm that plural. Then the Mouth puts his foot in it: he stops using vague plurals, and speaks of a single spy. Possibly the plural was a deliberate ploy (to try and tease out any information the Company might have about the inconsistency in Shagrat's story), possible just sloppy languages; whichever way it goes, instantly, Gandalf knows that only one hobbit was captured. He can't be sure which (the sword says Sam, the cloak says nothing, the vest says Frodo), but he can be confident that there is still a good chance that a Ringbearer is free in Mordor. He doesn't let it slip - telling the Mouth that would be the height of folly! - but it informs his actions thereafter. In effect, Gandalf has been brought to the exact same knowledge the reader has at this point. As an aside: it's a real pity that no adaptation of the books will ever be able to capture the suspense of this chapter. A first time reader has no idea what's happening in Mordor. They know only that Sam is alone in Mordor, Frodo a captive - and now the Mouth says he's going to be tortured! And then the battle, and it's clear that the West is losing, that everything is going to fall... and away we cut to Book 6, and the eucatastrophe comes. I'm also really surprised, looking at the chapter list, at how short the journey in Mordor is. It's only three chapters! The stuff the movies packed into the 'Endings' is twice as long as Frodo and Sam's journey from Shelob to Mount Doom! Eesh, it doesn't feel that way in the book, does it? hS |
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12-05-2017, 12:38 PM | #13 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Would it have been possible for Shagrat to have kept anything back from Sauron at that juncture?
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12-06-2017, 06:44 AM | #14 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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If he reported straight to Sauron and not a next in rank...
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12-06-2017, 06:45 AM | #15 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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"That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together." And I believe Shagrat is the only possible source for that information (such as it was). Sounds like he might have changed his story several times, actually. Anyway, I don't think the Mouth's failure to mention the presence of a second "spy" is, by itself, what tipped Gandalf off- he doesn't openly show scepticism until somewhat later, and then it pertains to the Mouth's "haggling". I'd say it's more that there's an accumulation of "tells" that make it clear that the Ring hasn't been recovered and that, in fact, he has no idea what the "spy's" real mission was (cf. my points and Huinesoron's).
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12-06-2017, 07:13 AM | #16 | |
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In this post, WCH pointed out to my gratitude that Sauron appears to have interrogated (and executed) Shagrat in person; Professor Tolkien wrote the following in the currently unpublished time scheme he used to keep track of what was happening in the story (as seen here, relevant quote circled by some internet user):
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Personally I imagine that Shragrat was probably quite open with Sauron, perhaps thinking that he was going to make himself look good. If he was loyal/obedient/stupid enough to deliver Frodo's equipment (and therefore evidence of his own incompetence) to his superiors at Barad-dûr, I might be willing to imagine that he was also honest and thorough in his report.
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12-07-2017, 04:08 AM | #17 | ||
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`All right! But if I were you, I'd catch the big one that's loose, before you send in any report to Lugbúrz. It won't sound too pretty to say you've caught the kitten and let the cat escape.' (I feel like there was a point where we saw a Nazgul leave the Tower, but I think that was probably to do with Isengard instead? I may be wrong, but it doesn't really alter the narrative.) Unfortunately for Shagrat, the next question must have been 'so where is he?'. To which the answer can only be 'he got away'. Uh-oh. 'How? You had an entire army of orcs in that Tower!' What's a cowardly Captain to say? The answer he's been working on all along: 'this elf-warrior stormed the Tower, killed all my boys, and took him away...' So the message goes out to scour the Black Land for a tall elf, but Shagrat doesn't get long to bask in the glory. At this point, if he's not already being questioned by Sauron, he gets taken directly to the Lord of the Black Land. I imagine Sauron would operate something like the Romans treated slaves - when an orc tells you something that might be important, torture and interrogate him to check whether it's true. After all, what's one orc less? And Shagrat's story does change. It emerges that while his mention of an elven sword holds up, the warrior in question was actually 'another one of the little rats' - a halfling, a sort of small dwarf-man. Fine (thinks Sauron), I know Saruman had and lost one of those, I know Gandalf keeps sending them out on all sorts of stupid errands, I know in fact that one was used to sneak into Erebor and scout for the attack on Smaug... clearly this is another sneaky trick like that. And he sends out the word that they need to watch for Hobbits. At this point, Sauron has already had his showdown with Aragorn via palantir. He's already lost a battle of wills. He's rattled. In fact, he's thrown his entire army at Minas Tirith and failed to take it. He's certain that Aragorn has the Ring - hence why 'Shire! Baggins!' doesn't even occur to him as a reason for Frodo's presence - and he thinks that Frodo and Sam are scouts for the invasion. Except... that doesn't explain why the Captain of the Tower is here in person, and wounded to boot. Has the invasion already started? Send for Shagrat again! So now, instead of the prisoner, Shagrat is being interrogated about the fall of the Tower. And yes, he has to admit it fell - but his explanation is garbled (because, y'know, he's been tortured). Sauron manages to gather that it wasn't the Hobbits who killed everyone, or an army from the West - but orcs, claiming to be from Minas Morgul. And the pieces fall into place in his well-machined mind. Saruman has Uruk-hai in his service. Saruman presented a halfling to his palantir and then fell silent - and the next time the Palantir was used, it was Isildur's Heir, bearing Isildur's Sword, and wielding the Ring Isildur stole (so Sauron believes). Saruman's fortress is full of those irritating children of Yavanna's, with no sign of his armies. Saruman has always been suspect, as a long-time ally of the West. Saruman, not the Grey Fool (what, you thought the Voice of Saruman had no effect on Sauron's thought processes?), is behind everything. Saruman, wielding Isildur's Heir like a puppet, is sneaking his own orcs into Mordor to take over... It's a perfectly logical story which happens to be wrong in every particular. But it feeds into and off Sauron's prejudices, specifically the belief that no-one would ever give up any source of power. Aragorn must have the Ring, because why would he surrender it? He must have sought alliance with Saruman, because Saruman is strong (and his Voice is persuasive enough to sway anyone). To Sauron's Eye, Aragorn+Saruman is the enemy now, and hobbits + orcs are the invaders. So out goes the third message: The Enemy Is Us. Look out for rebel Uruk-hai in Mordor. Keep a special eye out for deserters, who might be defecting. And bring everyone up to Udûn - the Nazgul are watching the Tower now, he'll know if there's an invasion from that side. And since Shagrat is now useless - he lost his command, he's been in contact with rebel troops, and he's only got a few fingers left besides - Sauron might as well kill him off. I don't think there's textual evidence for the 'Sauron believes Saruman has turned' theory, but I do think it all hangs together. So now, naturally, it's going to get ripped to shreds. hS |
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12-07-2017, 06:08 AM | #18 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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It's an interesting theory of an Uruk-hai sabotage, Huinesoron - except in your version Sauron finds out there were TWO hobbits involved. If that was the case, the Mouth would have been talking in plural. What's another bluff in that speech?
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12-07-2017, 07:09 AM | #19 | |
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Because you're right - I don't think the Mouth can have known there were two Hobbits, otherwise specifically saying one would have been as good as saying 'your plan has not yet failed'. Whatever the details, I kind of appreciate the fact that Frodo's success wasn't just a run of blind luck, but the result of Sauron being repeatedly fed both deliberate and accidental misinformation. From the moment Pippin looked into the Palantir, Sauron seems to have had everything 100% backwards - and that led directly to his downfall. hS |
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12-07-2017, 10:08 AM | #20 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A good post from Huinesoron. Here are a few things I've observed.
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However, when Frodo and Sam left Cirith Ungol on the 15th, a Ringwraith arrived at the tower: "Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek." This Nazgûl was already in the vicinity the day before Shagrat reached Barad-dûr, and it doesn't seem to have been en route to somewhere else (such as Isengard or the Pelennor) because the Orcs in the area knew it had taken charge: Quote:
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I can't explain the use of plural, but this suggests the following to me: 1. Frodo was captured. 2. News of this was sent to Barad-dûr 3. The Orcs quarrel; Shagrat leaves for Barad-dûr 4. I'm unsure of this part, but then possibly news of the capture reaches Barad-dûr. A Nazgûl flies to Cirith Ungol but arrives to find the guards dead and the prisoner gone. 5. Shagrat arrives at Barad-dûr, is interrogated and executed. Perhaps I've gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere, but it seems to me that information came to the Dark Tower before Shagrat's own arrival. In any event, this is all very interesting, isn't it? I always find piecing the timeline together satisfying. EDIT: It also occurs to me that even if Shagrat did not send an initial report, word may have come to the Dark Tower anyway; Shagrat didn't trust either Gorbag's company or his own. The Nazgûl at Cirith Ungol may have been watching in response to the Silent Watchers at Minas Morgul, I suppose. There's a lot to consider.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 12-07-2017 at 10:46 AM. |
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12-07-2017, 04:04 PM | #21 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I think the point is more that Shagrat would not have the strength of will or greatness of soul required to defy Sauron in any way in Sauron's direct presence. I believe abject submissiveness and groveling is what we need to picture, a pathetic and desperate need to try and please. Quote:
For that kind of fault Shagrat would have been executed by practically every military in history. Quote:
In fact, this opens up a potentially wider topic on communication, but focusing on the topic at hand; Minas Morgul clearly had some kind of hotline straight to Barad-dur. It is possible that some kind of Ósanwe continually connected Sauron to the Ringwraiths, although they are spoken of as communicating through mundane means as well. Another likely possibility is Sauron made use of a kind of fell-beast express for transmitting messages. However, we hear nothing about any kind of facilities for such existing at Cirith Ungol and clearly Sauron was not in direct telepathic communication with his orcish minions. Were the Watchers, perhaps, in some way hooked into a wider "security net" for Mordor where Sauron would be aware if one of the Watchers in the realm was uneasy?
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12-07-2017, 08:42 PM | #22 | ||
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That or, as you say, some kind of telepathic link between Sauron and the Nazgûl, although I'm not sure how much evidence there is for that (and I suspect that there may be evidence to the contrary, as you've also indicated).
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 12-07-2017 at 08:53 PM. |
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12-08-2017, 07:22 AM | #23 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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In other words, in his ignorance he chooses *the wrong thing* to bluff over.
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12-08-2017, 08:38 AM | #24 | |
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Well... quite a lot, as it turned out. Zigûr - so we could have as many as five messages from the Tower to Lugbúrz, arriving spectacularly out-of-sequence. Let's see if I can reconstruct the timeline: 13th Late in the day (I think? Sam says he thinks Frodo's been captive for a day or so, and they escape on the night of the 14th/15th), Frodo is taken captive. Shagrat had orders to send a message as soon as the prisoner's belongings had been checked; assuming he did so, it probably left that evening or the next morning. Message 1 - prisoner taken, list of belongings. Checking the timeline, it takes Frodo and Sam about four days to cover the distance; I would guess an orc could manage it in three, or two at a push. 14th Fighting breaks out in the Tower over Frodo's belongings. Given Gorbag's comments earlier - 'If there's any game, me and my lads must be in it.' - and Shagrat's comments about him, it seems likely he's the one who started it. Late in the day (or rather the night), Sam breaks past the Watchers, setting off the alarm in the Tower. This may telepathically inform Sauron and/or the Nazgûl - the latter would explain something a bit later. Message 2 - security breach. Message 2 is received immediately. Sauron knows something is going on (but not what). Sam battles his way through the Tower and finds Frodo. Shagrat flees the Tower and heads to Lugbúrz, carrying Frodo's belongings with him. Message 3 - fighting in the Tower, Frodo's belongings, Sam's appearance. 15th Frodo and Sam leave the Tower, shattering the Watchers and potentially alerting Sauron or Morgul. Message 4 - catastrophic security breack. A moment later, a Winged Messenger comes screeching down out of the sky. What was it doing there? How about responding to the break-in alarm the previous night? It could have been circling overhead, waiting to see what would happen. This would partially confirm Message 2 as happening, which would confirm Message 4. Message 4 is received immediately. Sauron knows the Tower has been fully breached, and may know that Elvish art was involved (depending on the detail levels). Whatever the case, the Nazgûl would certainly inform Sauron as soon as possible, which means very soon (one way or another). Message 5 - fall of the Tower, guard almost entirely dead. Message 5 is received that morning. Sauron knows the Tower has fallen, but he still doesn't know why! 16th Message 1 probably arrives at Lugbúrz on this day (if it was ever sent); Sauron probably kills the messenger, because who wants to hear 'we've caught a prisoner' after already knowing that everyone's dead? The mention of hobbits probably intrigues him - particularly if he knows exactly how the Witch-King died (which he might). Think of all the high-level deaths the hobbits have been involved in! Since around the fall of Dol Guldur, they and the people with them have killed a Dragon, a Balrog, and the Lord of the Nazgûl, and have been part of the downfall of Saruman. And it was one of their ilk that had His Ring for all those centuries... 17th Message 5 is probably received early on this day. What does Shagrat say, as he runs breathless into the Dark Tower? If Message 1 never happened (it's possible Gorbag killed the messenger - we know from Snaga that Gorbag’s swine got to the gate first, and none of ours got out), then he probably leads with 'we caught a prisoner', but he's not going to be able to hide the fact that the Tower has fallen. If he even tries - so much the worse for him. Sauron already has at least one message about the fall, and up to three. So what did Sauron find out from him? We know that the first story Shagrat gave was 'shining elf-warrior', and that this was believed long enough to be passed on to the police (as it were). Could this have been the point where Sauron summoned him directly? If Sauron spoke to him first, then we have to assume he lied to the Dark Lord, which (as Kuruharan says) seems a little far-fetched. Now that he is in the presence of Sauron, Shagrat reveals everything - the presence of two hobbits (I will admit that the possibility of his words being vague enough to imply only one is... remote), and the fighting between the guards. The message goes out to look for hobbits, Shagrat is executed for his execrable command skills... ... and then Sauron has about eight days to stew before Aragorn, the presumed Ringbearer, shows up at his gate. This is where the 'rebel Uruk-hai' story comes in, and it actually comes pretty quick: it looks like Frodo and Sam overheard the Soldier and Tracker discussing it on the 18th. Whether it sprang from my Saruman theory (which doesn't depend on inaccurate reporting), or from generalised concerns about rebellion at Minas Morgul (whence Gorbag), it clearly came to Sauron's mind very quickly. I dunno, I quite like the image of the Dark Lord working himself up into an absolute paranoid panic for a full week as Aragorn approaches and he waits for the other shoe to drop... hS |
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12-10-2017, 10:55 AM | #25 | |
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The same unpublished time-scheme referenced above also has this entry, for March 15:
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(I think we can disregard Tolkien's use of a plural here as a slip, in a note jotted in haste. No version of the story ever had Sam taken prisoner). Why did Sauron take no more decisive action when the first message arrived? Because he had other things on his mind-- like his main army assaulting the principal stronghold of his enemies, and unexpectedly being annihilated. That pretty much had the Eye's undivided attention on March 15. (Nazgul and Osanwe? An argument against is that another Nazgul was dispatched to B-D to carry the news that the Witch-King had been destroyed; not something which would justify pulling a major combat asset out of the battle if it weren't the only mode of communication. Note also that Sauron dispatched a second Nazgul in response to Pippin's looking into the Palantir, rather than re-tasking the one which was already en route to Rohan. And, finally, other writings incl. the time-schemes make it clear that Sauron was unaware of the events at the Bruinen until the Witch-king arrived in Mordor weeks later. All this suggests strongly that the Ringwraiths did not have radio comms with HQ.)
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 12-10-2017 at 11:09 AM. |
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12-10-2017, 11:04 AM | #26 |
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Another thought, on the parley at the Black Gate: If Sauron had recovered the Ring, Gandalf as Narya's keeper almost certainly would have been aware of it, just as Celebrimbor et al had been when it was first forged.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
12-10-2017, 04:48 PM | #27 |
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Very good point.
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12-10-2017, 05:19 PM | #28 |
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Good point indeed. I can't believe I hadn't thought of that before. My next paragraph possibly explains why I hadn't:
I wonder why Gandalf is so worried about the 'darkness' that has spread from Mordor, if Narya would 'tell' him Sauron did not have the Ring, when Faramir tells them he has met Frodo and Sam (and Gollum). I know Gandalf fears Gollum's treachery, but Pippin realises with a thrill of fear that Gandalf himself is troubled, even afraid. Faramir knows about the Ring, and connects Gandalf's immediate fear with the darkness that has begun. Faramir does not know about Narya, of course. And it is he who verbally connects the darkness with the supposed recovery of the Ring ... but I still had the impression that Gandalf was thinking of it, too.
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12-11-2017, 04:59 AM | #29 | ||||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,877
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Doing a quick trawl for ' ring ' in RotK, there are only six mentions of the word in such a context prior to Book Six, and all are talking about the One. Nothing to prove Gandalf is still wearing Narya. In fact, as Pervinca Took says, there is ample reason to believe he wasn't: Quote:
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There's only really two options here: -That Gandalf is not wearing Narya, which I think would have to be for safety reasons. -That he thinks Sauron might refrain from putting the Ring on until the crucial moment. One final hint at the first option: Quote:
~ Jumping back to William Cloud Hicklin's post for a minute, I agree with the logic against Ringwraith Telepathy. It also explains why Sauron didn't flood the Misty Mountains with orcs the minute Frodo donned the Ring at Weathertop: if he knew instantly that the Ring was moving, he could/should have assailed Lorien immediately from Dol Guldur and struck for Rivendell. Yes, there were servants of the Enemy moving around, but not in the kind of numbers that the confirmed presence of the Ring of Power would evoke. (Once the Nazgûl managed to return to Mordor, he would assume that the location of the Ring had long since been lost; the idea that they would hang out in Rivendell for two months would have been far from his mind.) I appreciate the confirmation of the timeline around the Tower; so the message about the prisoner arrived first? But it arrived by the 15th, which... let me check the map. Okay, so it's about 60-70 miles from the Tower to Lugbúrz in a straight line. Assuming 36 hours as a timeframe, you could cover that in a continuous amble; a running messenger could do it and even take breaks. Assuming a Winged Messenger could make the return trip in an hour or so... yes, this is a consistent timeline. I don't know about the idea that the Messenger just happened to be on final approach to the Tower when Frodo and Sam broke the Watchers and brought it down in a hurry. That sounds a bit too convenient. Perhaps he* was instead passing over on return to Minas Morgul, and broke his journey to investigate the happenings at the Tower he was bearing word about? That's a little less... neat. *Do we actually know that the Nazgûl are all male? I know they're Men, but... y'know what, there's probably a thread about that around here somewhere. I'll take a look. |
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12-11-2017, 05:00 PM | #30 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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However, I always had the idea that the Nazgul was only watching the Tower until the Watchers went off again.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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12-12-2017, 02:52 PM | #31 | ||
Odinic Wanderer
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Let me just start by saying that this tread has been an absolute joy to read through!
Love it, love it, love it. Quote:
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Most importantly: Samwise does not see Galadriel's ring, yet she is clearly wearing it and weidling its power. It also seems like it would be prudent to use the power of Nenya in the effort to protect Lothlorien from Sauron's forces. |
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