6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ArcusCalion · 11-06-2017, 03:21 PM

While I agree that if it is to be placed in the story, it fits well here, were we not planning to include it in Volume III as a standalone essay?

EPE-EX-12.5: I understand your reasoning for removing this,but since Men are mentioned at times in these early chapters, I think it is a permissible "flash-forward"if we could even call it that. It is simply a statement of fact about Men, and as this was written by Pengolodh,he would be familiar with Men,and expected his readers to be as well. I do not think we need to remove it.

EPE-EX-12.6: Why remove this? Since we have removed all notation of the chronology, we do not know how long the Elves remained in Aman, and so we do not know that 3000 years did not pass. Besides this fact, this is a general statement, not a statement of specific future events, and so I see no reason to remove it.

Findegil · 11-07-2017, 12:01 PM

If the essay should be split and be placed here and in volume 2 or entirely volume 3 can be discussed. I would prefer to have the appropriate parts near to the narrative.

EPE-EX-12.5: I removed this because it seems to me to refer to the 12 x 12 mortal years = 144 Years of the Sun = 1 Valian Year. which we decided not include.

EPE-EX-12.6: What this says is that Elves grow from child to adult in 3000 years of the Sun. This is in no way compatible with our chronology. Exiles born in Middle-earth in the first years of the First Age would only be in an age to fight sometime around the 2nd millennium of the Second Age! Therefore I think this must be ruled out as a proposed changed that we cannot in-cooperate in our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 11-08-2017, 05:27 PM

EPE-EX-12.5: I do not think it is explicit enough to warrant a deletion, but I suppose there is no real harm.

EPE-EX-12.6: Ah, I was not thinking. I agree.

On a side not, are you taking up the heading "Aman" as well for a subheading in the chapter?

Personally, I am against its inclusion here. It is told from the point of view of a Man discussing the nature of Aman. Thus, the Eldar are referenced in the third person, and terms such as "we must not forget that..." Overall, it is a philosophical musing of someone who has never been to Aman about what it is like in its nature. I am more inclined to keep it separate.

Findegil · 11-10-2017, 12:57 PM

About the heading: Yes, I would take it as a sub-heading in this chapter. For the second part in volume 2 I would use “Aman and mortal Men” as a full heading, under which I would include as well the parts of the Akallabeth telling of the desire of the Númenoreans for eternal life, the message of the Valar and the reaction of the Numenoreans. It would be placed between Of the Rings of Power telling of the war in Eregion and the War in Eriador and Tal-Elmar which includes the part of the Akallabeth telling about the division of the Numenoreans and their starting to make permanent lordships in Middle-earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 11-10-2017, 02:16 PM

I agree that that'd be a good place to put Aman and Mortal Men, since the Akallabeth is written by a Man and not an Elf. However, if this part is to be inserted into the Quenta Silmarillion, I think we must change one more thing:

Quote:

In recording the events in Aman, therefore, EPE-EX-12.45 {we may as did} the Eldar {themselves use}used the Valian unit, though {we must not forget that} within any such ‘year' the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of delights and achievements EPE-EX-12.5 which even the most gifted of Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelve mortal years. Nonetheless the Eldar ‘aged’ at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.

Because the author of the QS is an Elf, we must remove those bits.

Also, this is a point I was unsure of, but at the end:

Quote:

Then an Elf would begin EPE-EX-12.7 (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade',

The part in the parentheses I am unsure about. If we suppose this to be written by Pengolodh at eh Mouths of Sirion and then in Tol Eressea before being brought back to Middle-earth by the Numenoreans or Glorifindel, then would the Elves have begun fading?

Findegil · 11-11-2017, 06:52 PM

EPE-EX-12.45: This is a possibility. But on the other hand it is clear that our text has been handled by other then the original author. So we could assume this to be a inclusion by some such. I would like to have here the input of others.

The same is true for your second point. So here I think that at the middle of the Second Age, when Pengolodh left Middle-earth the fading was already observable.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil · 11-11-2017, 08:29 PM

I'm holding off on commenting on any of this until I can give my full attention to this chapter. However, I will say I'm somewhat disinclined to use 'Aman' here. It strikes me much more as commentary on the story than as something to be used in a narrative.

But I will look at this in detail when we turn our attention back to this chapter.

11-08-2017, 05:27 PM	#3
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	EPE-EX-12.5: I do not think it is explicit enough to warrant a deletion, but I suppose there is no real harm. EPE-EX-12.6: Ah, I was not thinking. I agree. On a side not, are you taking up the heading "Aman" as well for a subheading in the chapter? Personally, I am against its inclusion here. It is told from the point of view of a Man discussing the nature of Aman. Thus, the Eldar are referenced in the third person, and terms such as "we must not forget that..." Overall, it is a philosophical musing of someone who has never been to Aman about what it is like in its nature. I am more inclined to keep it separate. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-08-2017 at 05:35 PM.

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11-06-2017, 03:21 PM	#1
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	While I agree that if it is to be placed in the story, it fits well here, were we not planning to include it in Volume III as a standalone essay? EPE-EX-12.5: I understand your reasoning for removing this,but since Men are mentioned at times in these early chapters, I think it is a permissible "flash-forward"if we could even call it that. It is simply a statement of fact about Men, and as this was written by Pengolodh,he would be familiar with Men,and expected his readers to be as well. I do not think we need to remove it. EPE-EX-12.6: Why remove this? Since we have removed all notation of the chronology, we do not know how long the Elves remained in Aman, and so we do not know that 3000 years did not pass. Besides this fact, this is a general statement, not a statement of specific future events, and so I see no reason to remove it.

11-07-2017, 12:01 PM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	If the essay should be split and be placed here and in volume 2 or entirely volume 3 can be discussed. I would prefer to have the appropriate parts near to the narrative. EPE-EX-12.5: I removed this because it seems to me to refer to the 12 x 12 mortal years = 144 Years of the Sun = 1 Valian Year. which we decided not include. EPE-EX-12.6: What this says is that Elves grow from child to adult in 3000 years of the Sun. This is in no way compatible with our chronology. Exiles born in Middle-earth in the first years of the First Age would only be in an age to fight sometime around the 2nd millennium of the Second Age! Therefore I think this must be ruled out as a proposed changed that we cannot in-cooperate in our version. Respectfully Findegil

11-10-2017, 12:57 PM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	About the heading: Yes, I would take it as a sub-heading in this chapter. For the second part in volume 2 I would use “Aman and mortal Men” as a full heading, under which I would include as well the parts of the Akallabeth telling of the desire of the Númenoreans for eternal life, the message of the Valar and the reaction of the Numenoreans. It would be placed between Of the Rings of Power telling of the war in Eregion and the War in Eriador and Tal-Elmar which includes the part of the Akallabeth telling about the division of the Numenoreans and their starting to make permanent lordships in Middle-earth. Respectfully Findegil

11-11-2017, 06:52 PM	#6
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	EPE-EX-12.45: This is a possibility. But on the other hand it is clear that our text has been handled by other then the original author. So we could assume this to be a inclusion by some such. I would like to have here the input of others. The same is true for your second point. So here I think that at the middle of the Second Age, when Pengolodh left Middle-earth the fading was already observable. Respectfully Findegil

11-11-2017, 08:29 PM	#7
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I'm holding off on commenting on any of this until I can give my full attention to this chapter. However, I will say I'm somewhat disinclined to use 'Aman' here. It strikes me much more as commentary on the story than as something to be used in a narrative. But I will look at this in detail when we turn our attention back to this chapter.