4 Of the coming of the Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ArcusCalion · 10-09-2017, 01:23 PM

1. This is a British spelling that Tolkien uses frequently in his works. In my draft I usually change them to American spelling (for myself).

2. This does indeed sound better, I will take that suggestion up into my draft.

3. In the chapter "Of the Beginning of Time" Varda makes the older stars before the Valar arrive in Arda. Thus, there are older and newer stars, the first of which she made with the light of Eru.

4. This is true, I am also unsure of the dating. I would assume that they are contemporary, and even if not, it seems more like an instance of Tolkien misremembering something he already wrote, or simply forgetting it. However, in Laws and Customs, he does give general trends in the behavior of the nerei and the nissi that say that the men are more adventerous and practice hunting more often, while the women are more concerned with lore and the home etc, while providing the qualifier that either can do whatever they want equally well. This may be an instance of Tolkien simply using a generality without providing a qualkifier, in which case it would be fine, in my opinion, to simply leave it.

5. Tolkien was trying to say that Melkor was faaar more powerful than any of the individual Valar, so that even in defeat, Manwe was wary of him. In addition, as strange as it may seem in light of Manwe's character, these are Tolkien's words, and we cannot change them simply because we do not agree with them.

6. They have not, but they have no real introduction, as Tolkien gave them none. ANy that we give them would be fabrication on our part.

Findegil · 10-09-2017, 02:22 PM

1. British spelling rules in Tolkiens texts.

2. Agreed.

3. In all versions Varda made new starts, while older already existed. The light given to Varda by Eru was not used for the making of starts in general, but for the sun in particular.

4. I don’t see how their can be a direct contradiction with such a quoloquial sentence as that from Quendi and Eldar! Otherwise I would say we find contradictions to it in that Essay itself easily.

5. We do normaly not add to our text and specially not without clear indication. Yes, the bolt text is in the original source text as written by JRR Tolkien.
The sence with Melkor and Manwe facing each other after so long a time does rather support that fear than deny it. Yes Melkor is shrunken so that he could no longer dount Manwe with his eyes, but none the less does it need all the Valar in assembly to ofer come him and his agents. And what Manwe feared is not told. I don’t think he feared for himself or his safety, he feared for the demage that Melkor cold work on Ea.
Manwe was Iluvatars chief instrument against Melkor in the second thema. Therefore I think it was his concern to control Melkor. That said I do nonetheless agree to your opinion that Manwe desperately wants to believe in the repentance of Melkor.

6. No we do not. But Morwe and Nurwe have in all HoMe only this one single scene. So it is either taken them up here, or skipping them for good.

Respectfully
Findegil

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10-09-2017, 01:23 PM	#1
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	1. This is a British spelling that Tolkien uses frequently in his works. In my draft I usually change them to American spelling (for myself). 2. This does indeed sound better, I will take that suggestion up into my draft. 3. In the chapter "Of the Beginning of Time" Varda makes the older stars before the Valar arrive in Arda. Thus, there are older and newer stars, the first of which she made with the light of Eru. 4. This is true, I am also unsure of the dating. I would assume that they are contemporary, and even if not, it seems more like an instance of Tolkien misremembering something he already wrote, or simply forgetting it. However, in Laws and Customs, he does give general trends in the behavior of the nerei and the nissi that say that the men are more adventerous and practice hunting more often, while the women are more concerned with lore and the home etc, while providing the qualifier that either can do whatever they want equally well. This may be an instance of Tolkien simply using a generality without providing a qualkifier, in which case it would be fine, in my opinion, to simply leave it. 5. Tolkien was trying to say that Melkor was faaar more powerful than any of the individual Valar, so that even in defeat, Manwe was wary of him. In addition, as strange as it may seem in light of Manwe's character, these are Tolkien's words, and we cannot change them simply because we do not agree with them. 6. They have not, but they have no real introduction, as Tolkien gave them none. ANy that we give them would be fabrication on our part.

10-09-2017, 02:22 PM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	1. British spelling rules in Tolkiens texts. 2. Agreed. 3. In all versions Varda made new starts, while older already existed. The light given to Varda by Eru was not used for the making of starts in general, but for the sun in particular. 4. I don’t see how their can be a direct contradiction with such a quoloquial sentence as that from Quendi and Eldar! Otherwise I would say we find contradictions to it in that Essay itself easily. 5. We do normaly not add to our text and specially not without clear indication. Yes, the bolt text is in the original source text as written by JRR Tolkien. The sence with Melkor and Manwe facing each other after so long a time does rather support that fear than deny it. Yes Melkor is shrunken so that he could no longer dount Manwe with his eyes, but none the less does it need all the Valar in assembly to ofer come him and his agents. And what Manwe feared is not told. I don’t think he feared for himself or his safety, he feared for the demage that Melkor cold work on Ea. Manwe was Iluvatars chief instrument against Melkor in the second thema. Therefore I think it was his concern to control Melkor. That said I do nonetheless agree to your opinion that Manwe desperately wants to believe in the repentance of Melkor. 6. No we do not. But Morwe and Nurwe have in all HoMe only this one single scene. So it is either taken them up here, or skipping them for good. Respectfully Findegil