Of the Coming of Men Into the West

[ArcusCalion]

I think we should keep the note about the fungus because it is such an interesting source of information about so many things.

On a side note, some of the other notes about the druedain in the UT chapter, are they being saved for the second and third age stuff?

[Findegil]

What is from JRR Tolkien himself in these notes is from later paragraphs of the essay. And yes, what is useable should be used there.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Looking at the structure, I think we should consider making "Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar" the title of the chapter, and have "Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain" and "The Druedain" be subheadings. The name of the chapter "Of the {Naugrim and the} Edain" seems redundant.

[gondowe]

One thing about NE-KE-00.2.
I don´t know if in this case is necessary the changing of the order. Possibly, as the same CT suggested, the professor forgot the extended account of the coming of Men into the west that wrote in 1958, and it seems logical due to the great number of people of marach.
What do you think?
Greetings

[Elvellon]

They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; for they are a numerous people, and yet keep together and move slowly

This is contradicted by the text added from Of Dwarves and Men a couple paragraphs later:

They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others

Yes, technically Beor "passed them" because his folk arrived in Beleriand through while Marach's folk were taking the long way south around the mountains, but the reason he gives of size and speed heavily implies that Beor means he and his folk literally, physically, passed them.

Which brings me to the next point:

First came NE-KE-0.2 <Moved up Marach {led}[leading] his people over the Mountains; [...] And Marach [...] came down the Dwarf-road [...]

We learn in Of Dwarves and Men that the Folk of Marach "came up from southward" instead of "over the Mountains". I'm wondering why this was not taken up into the text, but the part about them not attempting to find passes, and "seeking a road round the Mountains" was. The way that the two texts are combined, it seems like Marach's people abandoned the plan to find a way around, and they went back north and came "down the Dwarf-road". If the intention is that they crossed over the mountains at a point to the south and then went "down the Dwarf-road" after coming up the west-side of the mountains, that's not clear as it is.

What's more, it seems to me that as it stands, we have two unique reasons for why the folk of Marach were delayed: first, as Beor explains it, because they are numerous and slow; and second, because they went south before coming back north. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but neither do they play very nice together. It seems better to me to go with one or the other, and much as I prefer the additional information from D&M, removing it does less harm to the text than trying to modify Beor's description of the the people of Marach's circumstances.

[Elvellon]

Also, the inclusion of Ros Note 13 creates a similar problem:

They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others

is contradicted by:

Nonetheless they did not know that the Lesser Folk had fled from the threat of the Servants of the Dark and gone on westward, while they had lain hidden in their woods, and so under their leader Bëor reached Beleriand at last many years before they did.

Furthermore, Beor reached Beleriand two years before Marach, not "many years before".

[Findegil]

Uhu, a lot has accumalted here since I last was in this discussion!

About the chapter heading: I agree to ArcusCalion's proposal and will nam that change NE-CD-00.1 and NE-CD-06

NE-KE-00.2 & NE-KE-00.3: For me the change of order is necessary. And I agree that we must alter the statement that Marach led his people over the mountains. I would simply change "NE-KE-00.3{over}[around] the mountains" and later "{came down}[follwed] the Dwarfe-road"

NE-CM-01.5: This Beor speaking about Marachs-Folk. I would alter this only slightly. Beor should not give the reason why they passed Marachs-folk, but I don't see an issue with him saying that they passed them:

§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away; and the Haladin, a people NE-CM-01{that speak the same tongue as we}[of a different speech], are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are also Men {of a different speech,} with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; NE-CM-01.5{for }they are a numerous people, and yet keep together{ and move slowly}, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'

If Marach is an individual name we might skip the last half sentence as well since Beor's people had no contact to these folk since they left the Sea of Rhûn, Beor can not know the name of the ruler. But think I remember that Marach was be a kind of title like 'Halbar' in the case of the folk of Haleth.

ROS Note13: I agree that many years must be changed. I would simply skip "many". But with Beor's folk leaving the Sea of Rhûn before the Folk of Marach, I don't see why this should be changed. On the long, long way through the wide regions Rhavanion and Eriador many a change of possition could take place without any of two people recognising it.

Respectfully
Findegil