3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles

[Findegil]

I don't think that Of Dwarves and Men is useable complete in volume 2. If at all the essay would fit in volume 3. Of Dwarves and Men is in over all a linguistic essay. But its story content ranges from the awakening of Dwarves to the end of the Third Age.
But I anyhow think that the content is needed in many parts. Pushed in part 3 it is fully out of sequence. I agree that the forward references that are included are valuable. But the question have we to remove them all? In The Silmarillion we as well such forward references. Not over much but a few are there.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Okay at long last I have made up my mind about the footnote concerning the additional dwarves add by Ilúvatar. I think they are needed. Therefore I propose the following:

DE-EX-07{Then Aulë took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them to rest in far-sundered places; and he returned to Valinor, and waited while the long years lengthened.} <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (e) Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone.DE-EX-07.1 <Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12, Note 24 {and at the head of the page he suggested that the legend of the Making of the Dwarves should be altered (indeed very radically altered) to a form in which <Concerning the Dwarves; passage (a) But it is said that to each Dwarf Ilúvatar added {a mate of female kind,}>other Dwarves {were}that he laid to sleep near to the Fathers.> And Aule returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.>

The only other open question that I can see in this thread is about how we handle Of Dwarves and Men. I for my part can’t see how we could use the full essay in one place. The most essential parts are what we used here and the passage about the Longbeards and the Northmen in the second age and that about the Drûg. The information of the awakening places of the Dwarves could be told in retrospect, but I don’t see that we could bring the complete essay anywhere near to LotR, where the Drûg part would be helpful as in introduction for the people of the Gâhn-buri-Gâhn. The Alliance of the Longbeards and the Northmen from an essential part of the story in the early Second Age. But in that place we can not use the entire essay either. So for me it is clear that we have to split it and use the parts where they belong chronologically as good as possible.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

For this chapter, I produced two texts, separating "Of Aule and the Dwarves" from "Of the Ents and the Eagles".

The basic text is the QS77, with only a few alterations and additions. I used "AD" for the text "Of Aule and the Dwarves".

As usual:
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion

<AD Of Aulë and the Dwarves>

AD-01<AD The Naugrim are not of the Elf-kind, nor of Man-kind, nor yet of Melkor's breeding; ... to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar.>

<QS77 It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; ...

Now Iluvatar knew what was done, ... And the voice of Iluvatar said to him: AD-02 'Why {hast thou}[have you] done this? Why {dost thou}[do you] attempt a thing which {thou}[you] know{est} is beyond {thy}[your] power and {thy}[your] authority? For {thou hast}[you have] from me as a gift {thy}[your] own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of {thy}[your] hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when {thou}[you] think{est} to move them, and if {thy}[your] thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that {thy}[your] desire?'

Then Aule answered: 'I did not desire such lordship. I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Ea, AD-03 which {thou hast}[you have] caused to be. For it seemed ... Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by {thee}[you]; and the child of little understanding ... But what shall I do now, so that {thou}[you] be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to {thee}[you] these things, the work of the hands which {thou hast}[you have] made. Do with them what {thou wilt}[you will]. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?'

Then Aule took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. ... And the voice of Iluvatar said to Aule: AD-04‘{Thy}[Your] offer I accepted even as it was made. {Dost thou}[Do you] not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from {thy}[your] blow, nor from any command of {thy}[your] will.' Then Aule cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Iluvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'

But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: 'Even as I gave being ... but in no other way will I amend AD-05 {thy}[your] handiwork, and as {thou hast}[you have] made it, so shall it be. But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that {thy}[your] impatience should be rewarded. ... and until that time {thou}[you] and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to {thee}[you] as children; and often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.'

Then Aule took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them ...

<LQ And since they AD-06{came}[were to come] in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made them strong to endure. ... Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the re-making of Arda after the Last Battle.

AD-07<AD Now these Seven Fathers, they say, return to live again and to bear once more their ancient names>. {Now these Fathers, they say, were seven in number, and they alone return (in the manner of the Quendi) to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names.} Of these Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that Dwarf-kin most friendly to the Elves whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.

In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, for they had, even from the first days of their Fathers, ...

The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. ...

The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, and their languages have thus no kinship with those of the Quendi. ...

In their own tongue the Dwarves name themselves Khazâd; ... and the Gonnhirrim masters of stone AD-08{; and those who dwelt in Belegost they called the Ennfeng or Longbeards, for their beards swept the floor before their feet}. The chief cities of the Khazâd in the west of Middle-earth in those days were at [Khazad-dûm], and at Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar, which are interpreted in the {Gnomish}[Sindarin] tongue Nornhabar the Dwarrowdelf, and Belegost Mickleburg, and Nogrod the Hollowbold. ... There battle later befell; but as yet the Dwarves troubled the Elves little, while the power of the Gnomes lasted.

AD-09Here end the words that {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] {spoke to me}[wrote] concerning the Dwarves, which are not part of the Pennas as it was written, but come from other books of lore, from the Lammas, the Dorgannas, and the Quentalë Ardanómion{: quoth Ælfwine}.>

Comments:

AD-01: This opening paragraph of AD was omitted from QS77.

AD-02: Christopher Tolkien says in XI that his father eventually settled on using the formal, "you", throughout AD, whereas QS77 uses "thou". I have reverted all instances of "thou" to "you".

AD-03: As AD-02

AD-04: As AD-02

AD-05: As AD-02

AD-06: Changed per Tolkien’s emendation to LQ1.

AD-07: Taking the later version of the statement about the Dwarf-fathers returning to life.

AD-08: The "Longbeards" were later the Dwarves of Khazad-dum, not of Belegost.

AD-09: Removal of Aelfwine.

For my text of "Anaxartaron Onyalië", with QS77 as the basis, I will only indicate the beginning, end, and changes, as the rest follows QS77.

<Of the Ents and the Eagles Anaxartaron Onyalië>

Now when Aule laboured in the making of the Dwarves he kept this work hidden from the other Valar; but at last he opened his mind to Yavanna and told her of all that had come to pass. ...

Therefore she went before Manwe, and she did not EE-01{betray}[bewray] the counsel of Aule, but she said: 'King of Arda, is it true, as Aule hath said to me, that the Children when they come shall have dominion over all the things of my labour, to do as they will therewith?'

...

'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to EE-02{Ilúvatar}[Eru] amid the wind and the rain.'

...

And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of EE-03{Iluvatar}[Eru]; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.

...

'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.

Comments:

EE-01: Per XI; ‘betray’ in QS77 was an editorial alteration of ‘bewray’.

EE-02: Per XI, as EE-01; ‘Iluvatar’ in QS77 for original ‘Eru’.

EE-03: As EE-02.

[Findegil]

This comparision is a difficult task. I will try to order the differences by occurrence and give some editing mark or some such as reference, so that the discussion might be at least easier to follow.

Happyly we both have chosen in this case the same basic text found in Sil77 page 16-17.

DE-SC-01 / AD-01: we added both these opening back in, but you toke up a bit too much. In your Version ‘It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Iluvatar.’ is redundant.

AD-02 to AD-05: I was not so clear about this changes. Was it really all instances that Tolkien changed? If you think so, we can take these changes up into our common version.

DE-EX-01 to DE-EX-07: All these expansions of my draft Aiwendil did decised against or did not consider.

AD-06: The change reporte here is done in Sil77. Therefore I did not mention it.

AD-07: In my version I created a much fuller account of the rebirth of the fathers with DE-EX-10 to DE-EX-12. But I positioned it differently.

In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, …: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

DE-EX-07 / The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, ...: This paragraph from AD both have taken up into the draft.

The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, ...: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

In their own tongue the Dwarves name themselves Khazâd; ...: This passages I did not take up into this chapter. I tried to use as small a portion of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to use it later in its proper place.

AD-08: I did a change in this passage of course, but quite differently. See the thread about ‘The Siege of Angband’.

AD-09: I did not take up this reference to Pengolod, but we might consider it. BY the way was {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] a decision taken by the project? I can’t remember.

DE-EX-09 to DE-EX-12: All these expansions of my draft Aiwendil did decised against or did not consider.

Sub-title: Aiwendil used the English title first and the Elvish second, while I did it the other way around. Since both were written of difrent amanuensis typescripts, we are completly free to chose, or was an other idea beyond your choice, Aiwendil?

DE-SC-04 / EE-01: These change was done in both versions. So I assume we agree on it.

DE-SC-05: this footnote found in HoMe 11 explaining ‘kelvar’ was not taken up by Aiwendil into his draft.

EE-02: This change from Iluvatar to Eru I missed in my Version, so I agree that it should be made.

DE-SC-06: This halfsentence was omitted from Sil778 because Christopher Tolkien thought it might imply that the sun was already in existence when Manwë thought about the Ents. This might have been Aiwendils reason not to include it as well. But since that vision is anyway a look into the future, I don’t think the omission is necessary. By the way I wrongly dedicated the source here as HoMe 12, as a matter of fact it is HoMe 11.

DE-SC-07 / EE-03: These change was done in both versions. So I assume we agree on it.

DE-SC-08: This passage was marked by Tolkien for exclusion, but Christopher Tolkien toke it nonetheless up into Sil77. In my draft I skipt it, Aiwendil kept it. I am open to both. In the event it is staing the fact of Middle-earth history that the Ents were doomed to die out in the Fourth Age and the dominion of Men.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

A few quick comments for now.

Originally Posted by Findegil

DE-SC-01 / AD-01: we added both these opening back in, but you toke up a bit too much. In your Version ‘It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Iluvatar.’ is redundant.

My goodness, what an oversight! You are right, I included that sentence twice in a row.

AD-02 to AD-05: I was not so clear about this changes. Was it really all instances that Tolkien changed? If you think so, we can take these changes up into our common version.

Discussing the text "Of Aule and the Dwarves", Christopher Tolkien says:

There are a number of insignificant editorial alterations in the published text, and among them one point should be mentioned: my father was uncertain whether to use 'thou' or 'you' in the converse of Aulë with Ilúvatar (in one case he changed 'you may' to 'thou mayst' and then reverted to 'you may'). In the end he decided on 'you', whereas the published text has 'thou' throughout.

So yes, it appears that Tolkien's decision was to use "you" throughout this dialogue, despite the fact that Christopher for some reason opted for "thou" in the '77.

AD-06: The change reporte here is done in Sil77. Therefore I did not mention it.

That's fair.

AD-09: I did not take up this reference to Pengolod, but we might consider it. BY the way was {Pengolod}[Thingódhel] a decision taken by the project? I can’t remember.

It seems that in the time since I wrote this draft, we changed our mind about this - based on 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals', we decided to go back to Pengoloð/Pengolodh (see here).

Sub-title: Aiwendil used the English title first and the Elvish second, while I did it the other way around. Since both were written of difrent amanuensis typescripts, we are completly free to chose, or was an other idea beyond your choice, Aiwendil?

I don't think I had any reasoning behind this; just arbitrary choice.

The other points require me to look at things a bit more carefully, so I'll do that when I get the chance.

[Findegil]

AD-02 to AD-05: Okay, we take up these changes, but number them all. Also in DE-EX-04 we have:

… thought be elsewhere, standing idle. DE-EX-04<Letters; no. 212 Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to AD-02.2{thee thine}< For consistence with Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 your> own thought. This is a mockery of me.> Is that AD-02.1{thy}<Of Dwarves and Men, HoME 12 your> desire?'

And I have a question: in the last instance of AD-05 you replaced ‘often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.' Is this corret? My feeling is that ‘your’ and ‘my’ would be correct, ‘yours’ doesn’t feels right at all. But that is based only on my feeling if I would add to it: ‘often strife shall arise between your children and my children. If that is true then ‘mine’ was used to corosponde nicely to ‘thine’. If we correct ‘thine’ to ‘your’ then shouldn’t we change ‘mine’ to ‘my’?

AD-06: I will include the edditng marker in the text, so that we can trak it.

AD-09: I think that we deciseded against using any diacritical signs in the normal text like ‘ð’. Therefore I assume it is Pengolodh. But in the case of Maedhros we have a late text of Tolkien naming him Maedros which was what we adopted. Looking up many of the references we have already included, I think I agree on taken this one up into our version as well, but I think it should go with the passages left of ‘Concerning the Dwarves’ to the end of ‘Of the Coming of the Noldor’

Titel: If your choise was arbitrary, I agrue that the Elvish should be first, since the English seems to be a kind of translation, or not?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

And I have a question: in the last instance of AD-05 you replaced ‘often strife shall arise between {thine}[yours] and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.' Is this corret? My feeling is that ‘your’ and ‘my’ would be correct, ‘yours’ doesn’t feels right at all. But that is based only on my feeling if I would add to it: ‘often strife shall arise between your children and my children. If that is true then ‘mine’ was used to corosponde nicely to ‘thine’. If we correct ‘thine’ to ‘your’ then shouldn’t we change ‘mine’ to ‘my’?

No, it should be "yours and mine". "My" and "thy" correspond with "your" (these are possessive determiners, and cannot be used as predicate adjectives), whereas "mine" and "thine" correspond with "yours". If the word "children" were explicitly included, it would be correct to say "strife shall arise between your children and my children", but if "children" is left out, it must be "strife shall arise between yours and mine".

AD-09: OK. Personally, I don't trouble myself too much about things like ð vs. dh, as this is purely a matter of English orthography. We should, however, go with Tolkien's latest convention.

Titel: If your choise was arbitrary, I agrue that the Elvish should be first, since the English seems to be a kind of translation, or not?

Yes, that does make more sense.