Time in Middle-earth

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't suppose Tolkien was much of a techie, certainly not the sort who would be aware of the difference and relative dates of aneroid and mercury barometers. I think, at least at the time of the illustration, he viewed Mr B Baggins Esq as enjoying the material lifestyle of an English country gentleman of, say, William and Mary's time. Such a man would very likely have had clocks on the wall and the mantle, and a barometer beside the door to check the weather before going out; I doubt T realized that the one depicted was 'anachronistic.'

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think, at least at the time of the illustration, he viewed Mr B Baggins Esq as enjoying the material lifestyle of an English country gentleman of, say, William and Mary's time. Such a man would very likely have had clocks on the wall and the mantle, and a barometer beside the door to check the weather before going out; I doubt T realized that the one depicted was 'anachronistic.'

I agree, and think this is very important. The Shire is not purely Middle-earth material, it's a mix of Middle-earth and England, and certain elements can only be integrated into the rest of Middle-earth so much.

But it is still interesting to explain clocks and barometers in the Shire bypassing that argument, even though it's most likely the truest. Can we explain them purely in Middle-earth terms? The hypothesis of a dwarven invention was already addressed. I doubt many hobbits would invite Dwarven constructions into their daily lives with open arms - maybe toys, but not things that quite literally dictate your life. Perhaps Bilbo was unique in having a clock and barometer in his house, given his friendship and fascination with Dwarves. Or, if clocks were a common thing among hobbits, I wonder if they themselves made them. Is it possible to make a clock like that with mostly wooden pieces? Springs must be metal, but can the rest be wood? I don't think hobbits were that much into metal shaping to make gears and such, but I can see them tinkering around with wood as a hobby or something.

[Zigûr]

I've done a quick search, and these are my apparent findings:

In The Hobbit, Gandalf mentions Bilbo's clock once, the narrator mentions Bilbo's clock twice, and Bilbo describes the interior of Erebor as a "clockless, timeless hole", which is the nearest we have to evidence that Dwarves did not have clocks. Of course other possibilities exist, such as that any clocks in Erebor had naturally become nonfunctional over many years. The word "o'clock" is used once on the sign put up by Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes announcing the auction of Bilbo's property.

Looking through The Lord of the Rings suggests that the word "clock" on its own occurs twice: once when Bilbo tries to put the envelope containing the Ring next to his, and once in Ithilien when Sam says that the time is "nigh on half past eight by Shire clocks, maybe." The word "o'clock" is used multiple times, but Gandalf is the only non-Hobbit to use it; he was familiar with Hobbits. The only non-Hobbit to whom the word is used is Mr. Butterbur, who evidently understands what the term means, although given the translation conceit we might imagine that the Hobbits were really saying "the Xth hour" when they say "X o'clock".

At one point when the hour is struck in Minas Tirith, however, Pippin muses to himself "Nine o'clock we'd call it in the Shire." This remark and Sam's about "Shire clocks", combined with Bilbo's complaint about Erebor being "clockless", suggest to me that Professor Tolkien imagined clocks to be an invention peculiar to the Shire and Hobbits, and perhaps only known outside it in neighbouring Bree-land, which was of course another place in which Hobbits lived in numbers.

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for all the comments, William, Galadriel and Zigûr!

William, you might be right in terms of Tolkien not thinking through the issue of the barometer being an aneroid one.

Galadriel, you asked the question, 'Is it possible to make a clock like that with mostly wooden pieces?' The answer is 'Yes'. It can be seen if we look at the life of the great John Harrison (1683-1776), the self-educated English carpenter and clockmaker, who invented the marine chronometer. Early in his career, he built wooden clocks, one being in Nostel Priory, Yorkshire, made by him in 1717:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bradford/conten..._feature.shtml

Harrison was the son of a carpenter for the estate, who was trained by his father for the same trade. He found himself repairing, then making clocks. In terms of the one shown, the wooden mechanism enables it to keep accurate time centuries later, this being due to the woods used, including lignum vitae, not needing any lubrication like a metal clock would.

Zigûr, thanks for the references you have pulled out regarding clocks from The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. I would add to this by saying that, in Chapter 2 of the first book, hobbits appear to be, as a society, used to the idea of accurate time, due to the existence and plentiful nature of clocks. Those who don't have one at home might be able to at least see one, hear one, or both.

Even if the dwarves don't have clocks, they are aware that hobbits do; so the contract they leave for Bilbo has the term that it would be accepted by him if he turned up at the Green Dragon Inn at '11 a.m. sharp', with a reminder to him to be 'punctual'. (Their emphasis)

Bilbo has 10 minutes to get there, and does so 'just on the stroke of eleven'. Can this imply that there was a clock nearby, perhaps in the Green Dragon? I can imagine it being of service for travellers. Balin was keeping a look out for Bilbo at the door, and congratulated him for arriving on time with a 'Bravo!'

Bilbo then apologised for arriving at the last minute, explaining that he hadn't got their note (or rather contract) 'until after 10.45 to be precise'.

Zigûr, you then wondered if clocks were peculiar to hobbits, and only used in the Shire and in Bree-land. If that was the case, were there all kinds of local times, or some kind of agreed universal time, approximating to Greenwich Mean Time, if Pippin was able to make reference to 'Nine o'clock we'd call it in the Shire'?

It would, I suggest, make sense for the existence of a 'Shire time', originally introduced to facilitate the postal service. A common time would make it easier for those using it, in terms of knowing when the post offices would be open, and when the post would be delivered. What do people think?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

and Bilbo describes the interior of Erebor as a "clockless, timeless hole", which is the nearest we have to evidence that Dwarves did not have clocks. Of course other possibilities exist, such as that any clocks in Erebor had naturally become nonfunctional over many years.

-and-

suggest to me that Professor Tolkien imagined clocks to be an invention peculiar to the Shire and Hobbits, and perhaps only known outside it in neighbouring Bree-land, which was of course another place in which Hobbits lived in numbers.

I think Bilbo was describing Erebor as it was at that current time, which was essentially a ruin.

My thought is that clocks might be construed as a dwarven invention to help them tell time in their underground homes where they did not have the benefit of the sun to mark the passage of time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Is it possible to make a clock like that with mostly wooden pieces?

Oh, yes; I have one on my wall. It's a copy of one made in Germany dated 1640; the only metal pieces are the crownwheel escapement and the small lead foliot weights- the drive weight is a rock. (note: no need for springs in a weight-driven clock). I have a much later clock, an Eli Terry from 1845 with mostly wooden works; even in the earlier 19th century wood was more affordable than brass.