Aragorn's assertiveness

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

It's nice to see how this thread has progressed since my last post...

I'd like to make a couple of points. First, thanks for posting those quotes, Leaf; but I feel you left an important one out. It is the exchange between Boromir and Aragorn at the end of the Council of Elrond, which I think is very revealing. Boromir said that Aragon's sword may stem the tide, 'if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men'. Aragorn's response is quite low key: 'Who can tell? But we will put it to the test one day'.

It is clear from this that Boromir accepted Aragorn's descent, but is waiting to see if he has any of the qualities of the old kings. For all Boromir knew, this man and his immediate ancestors had done nothing other than reproduce and hold on to some heirlooms. The main question he is asking is, obviously, 'Can he fight?' Aragorn is aware that Boromir is one of the most important people he will need to win over, hence his low key answer.

The second point is one made by critic Paul Kocher in his Master of Middle-earth: The Achievement of J. R. R. Tolkien (1972). He devotes a chapter of his book to Aragorn, and makes an interesting point about what happens to that character after his crowning as King Elessar: 'Aragorn the man recedes from us into Aragorn the King. But there are still times when the regal robes are off'. The example Kocher gives is when Aragorn and Gandalf climb Mount Mindolluin. The former points out his loneliness at the long prospect of his new royal responsibility and is aware that Gandalf would soon leave.

Another example, which Kocher was not then aware of, can be seen in the abandoned last chapter of LotR, the versions of which are given in Volume 12 of The History of Middle-earth, when Aragorn as Elessar is going to pay his second visit to the North, and sends a letter to Sam and Rose, saying that he would be at the Brandywine Bridge on a particular date, 'And he desires to greet there all his friends'. He added that 'In especial he desires' to meet Sam, Rose, and their children, each child mentioned by name, a nice touch.

I was sad that this chapter didn't make it; as it showed through the letter that Elessar remembered when he was Aragorn and Strider, and presumably had no problems with his friends addressing him as such.

In these respects Aragorn shows again the strain of Tragedy that touched all of Tolkien's threads:

That Aragorn has a duty that is not his own doing, but one that has been thrust upon him.

And that because of this duty, he is denied many of the things he had when Sauron still lived (friends, the freedom to come-and-go, few responsibilities to others, etc.).

And the letter to Sam at his coming to the North was a touching reminder of the fact that he remained a man, who had the same needs of any other man (or woman, for that matter - although biology will dictate a few different needs between the genders).

I have not yet read the Paul Kocher book (But I have it in some stack or box, someplace).

I will have to take a look at it sooner than not, from the sounds of it.

Funny.... There is another Paul Kocher I have met in California, who is a Cryptographer. When I first hear of Master of Middle-earth, I confused the two for a while.

MB

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

In these respects Aragorn shows again the strain of Tragedy that touched all of Tolkien's threads:

That Aragorn has a duty that is not his own doing, but one that has been thrust upon him.

And that because of this duty, he is denied many of the things he had when Sauron still lived (friends, the freedom to come-and-go, few responsibilities to others, etc.).

I disagree. What you are describing is more fitting to the character of movie-Aragorn. Book-Aragorn's duty is entirely his own doing. He wanted to become King Elessar from the start and did everything in his power to accomplish this. He's proud, self-confident and resilient in his claims. Just take the last quote that I posted:

'Fear not!' he said. 'Long have I desired to look upon the likenesses of Isildur and Anárion, my sires of old. Under their shadow Elessar, the Elfstone son of Arathorn of the House of Valandil Isildur’s son, heir of Elendil, has naught to dread!' Then the light of his eyes faded, and he spoke to himself: 'Would that Gandalf were here! How my heart yearns for Minas Anor and the walls of my own city! But whither now shall I go?'

Note the enumeration of his titles and family relations and the claim on Minas Arnor. It sure doesn't seem to me that this could be attributed to a character that is torn between his duty and his own true desires. They really are one and the same.

If anything Aragorn is torn because of his duty towards the ring's fate and his own political agenda. Annoyingly, he has to take Gandalf's place and this is getting in the way of his original plans.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I disagree. What you are describing is more fitting to the character of movie-Aragorn. Book-Aragorn's duty is entirely his own doing. He wanted to become King Elessar from the start and did everything in his power to accomplish this.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your point, why do you think he had such a drive to become King of Gondor? He had many ancestors that had the same claim as he did but none of them made any attempt to make it good. Was it love of Arwen? Could be, but honestly the reason why the opportunity arose was because of the War of the Ring. Given the circumstances surrounding the situation and the opportunity the war provided, it could be argued that it was his destiny.

Originally Posted by Leaf

Note the enumeration of his titles and family relations and the claim on Minas Arnor. It sure doesn't seem to me that this could be attributed to a character that is torn between his duty and his own true desires. They really are one and the same.

If anything Aragorn is torn because of his duty towards the ring's fate and his own political agenda. Annoyingly, he has to take Gandalf's place and this is getting in the way of his original plans.

However, I do disagree with your interpretation of Aragorn's motives in this. I do not think he was annoyed or put out by his duty to the Ring quest any more than Frodo or Sam, who also frequently wanted to return to the Shire. Of course they all wanted to be off doing something else that they wanted to do. The quest was a miserable experience. But the fate of the world was literally hanging in the balance. I have no doubt that had circumstances been different, Aragorn would have gone up Mount Doom with Frodo on his back if need be.

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

While I don't necessarily disagree with your point, why do you think he had such a drive to become King of Gondor? He had many ancestors that had the same claim as he did but none of them made any attempt to make it good. Was it love of Arwen? Could be, but honestly the reason why the opportunity arose was because of the War of the Ring. Given the circumstances surrounding the situation and the opportunity the war provided, it could be argued that it was his destiny.

I could never find a satisfactory answer to your question. As you say, theoretically every forefather could have tried to claim their right to the throne of Gondor. Your proposal makes sense since we know that appareantly there's a prophecy about the Return of the King:

'...for it was spoken of old among us that it [Narsil] should be made again when the Ring, Isildur’s Bane, was found.'

I think it's fair to extrapolate from the re-forging of Narsil to the re-taking of the arnorian/gondorian throne. But I really don't like the implications of this. This would imply that the believe in this prophecy was so strong that every prospective pretender to the throne would act accordingly and sit tight, giving up their chance to power because the time hasn't come yet. Given all the generations of potential claimants this seems too idealistic to me. It also seems strange to me that there was an expectation that Sauron's Ring will (with absolute certainty) be found again. This makes Gandalf's blunder regarding Bilbos magic ring even more surprising.

I think that the conjunction of the ring-story and the king-story is one of Tolkiens weaker designs.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, I do disagree with your interpretation of Aragorn's motives in this. I do not think he was annoyed or put out by his duty to the Ring quest any more than Frodo or Sam, who also frequently wanted to return to the Shire. Of course they all wanted to be off doing something else that they wanted to do. The quest was a miserable experience. But the fate of the world was literally hanging in the balance. I have no doubt that had circumstances been different, Aragorn would have gone up Mount Doom with Frodo on his back if need be.

I do agree with you and I apologize for the lax wording. I just wanted to point out that Gandalf's death was a drawback to Aragorn's initial planning.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I could never find a satisfactory answer to your question. As you say, theoretically every forefather could have tried to claim their right to the throne of Gondor. Your proposal makes sense since we know that appareantly there's a prophecy about the Return of the King:

'...for it was spoken of old among us that it [Narsil] should be made again when the Ring, Isildur’s Bane, was found.'

I think it's fair to extrapolate from the re-forging of Narsil to the re-taking of the arnorian/gondorian throne. But I really don't like the implications of this. This would imply that the believe in this prophecy was so strong that every prospective pretender to the throne would act accordingly and sit tight, giving up their chance to power because the time hasn't come yet. Given all the generations of potential claimants this seems too idealistic to me.

Personally I do find it plausible that successive generations of Chieftains of the Dunedain did feel constrained by the prophecy. I think that would be in keeping with the setting that Tolkien intended to create.

From a practical standpoint, there were a number of considerations against it. Politically, Gondor was too stable until the time of the War of the Ring for the prospect of an unknown rustic from the North to come in and claim the throne to have any appeal for the Gondorians themselves. The issue of a Northern claimant to the throne of Gondor had been decisively defeated for that epoch with the rejection of Arvedui. It is noteworthy that Aragorn emphasized being Elendil's heir rather than just Isildur's, probably to avoid the problem Arvedui experienced.

Also, for the most part the Chieftains of the Dunedain were concerned with the survival of their small people and had little time to spare for larger ambitions.

It also seems strange to me that there was an expectation that Sauron's Ring will (with absolute certainty) be found again. This makes Gandalf's blunder regarding Bilbos magic ring even more surprising.

Can't argue too much with that. Sometimes we just have to recall that Tolkien hadn't figured out everything by the time he wrote the books.

I think that the conjunction of the ring-story and the king-story is one of Tolkiens weaker designs.

Perhaps, but it is very much in keeping with the heroic mode that was Tolkien's inspiration. Great peril arises -> hero arises to vanquish the peril -> hero sets world to rights

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Personally I do find it plausible that successive generations of Chieftains of the Dunedain did feel constrained by the prophecy. I think that would be in keeping with the setting that Tolkien intended to create.

From a practical standpoint, there were a number of considerations against it. Politically, Gondor was too stable until the time of the War of the Ring for the prospect of an unknown rustic from the North to come in and claim the throne to have any appeal for the Gondorians themselves. The issue of a Northern claimant to the throne of Gondor had been decisively defeated for that epoch with the rejection of Arvedui. It is noteworthy that Aragorn emphasized being Elendil's heir rather than just Isildur's, probably to avoid the problem Arvedui experienced.

Also, for the most part the Chieftains of the Dunedain were concerned with the survival of their small people and had little time to spare for larger ambitions.

Those practical objections all seem reasonable to me. They are (within the context of Middle-Earth) understandable answers to the posed question. My problem is that Tolkien didn't include them in the text of Fellowship. Instead, he simply threw in a few vague lines about a prophecy that supposedly prevented a premature Return of the King.

I don't find this solution to be very elegant. On the contrary, it's kind of hamfisted.


It would be illuminating if someone took their time to trace this problem back to the HoME.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Leaf

My problem is that Tolkien didn't include them in the text of Fellowship. Instead, he simply threw in a few vague lines about a prophecy that supposedly prevented a premature Return of the King.

I don't find this solution to be very elegant. On the contrary, it's kind of hamfisted.

This probably boils down to stylistic preferences in the end. I don't find these resolutions to be hamfisted, but rather add texture to the setting.

Originally Posted by Leaf

It would be illuminating if someone took their time to trace this problem back to the HoME.

Part of the problem may arise in that Strider did not start off as Strider at all.

Anyway, I will actually be home this evening so I will take some time to thumb through the last part of Fellowship and see if anything additional catches my eye beyond what has been mentioned already.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Leaf

Those practical objections all seem reasonable to me. They are (within the context of Middle-Earth) understandable answers to the posed question. My problem is that Tolkien didn't include them in the text of Fellowship. Instead, he simply threw in a few vague lines about a prophecy that supposedly prevented a premature Return of the King.

I don't find this solution to be very elegant. On the contrary, it's kind of hamfisted.

I agree about the prophecy- it's almost the literary version of a "kludge". However, purely by coincidence, I happened to be puzzling over this question of, "well, but couldn't the king really have "returned" any time? Why the wait?", and it was those "practical objections" that came to mind, not the prophecy, (about which I had actually forgotten). What I'm saying is that I think these things can be inferred from the text of the whole novel, even if not from "Fellowship" alone.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I disagree. What you are describing is more fitting to the character of movie-Aragorn. Book-Aragorn's duty is entirely his own doing. He wanted to become King Elessar from the start and did everything in his power to accomplish this. He's proud, self-confident and resilient in his claims. Just take the last quote that I posted:

I think You'll find that I do not admit the movies exist.

I hate, loath, and detest the movies.

I am sorry that I have left you with the impression that I was referencing the movies, as I did not mean to imply that Aragorn was anything but anxious to take up what was rightfully his.

But wanting to do something does not mean also not accepting the loss that could accompany it as well.

MB